Are repentance and faith conditions of salvation?

We are saved from sin (Matt 1:21).

Do you agree?

If one is required to repent before one can be saved, is that not a legal requirement that man must meet? In other words man must do something to gain salvation.
However, if Salvation is based on whether or not one believes, as Jesus states, then man is not required to do anything, but merely to accept what has already been done for him.

Do you agree?

You say that Salvation is only needed by sinners, Paul disagrees, "for all have sinned", and elsewhere, "there is none righteous, no not one". So salvation is what ALL mankind needs, but why? If not saved, man is cast into the lake of fire, the second and final death Rev 20:14,15. But, for all who believe in God, that is, have FAITH in God, they pass from death into life. What life? Eternal life, because they are not judged and cast into the lake of fire, but are separated (sanctified) as sheep are separated from goats.

When we say among ourselves that one is saved, that merely means that one has accepted the promise made by God, and that one believes the promise to be true, and behaves accordingly. The promise has not yet been fulfilled for the one who remains in this natural life. But when he/she passes from this natural life retaining faith in the promise, into the spiritual realm, the Promise of a reality accepted becomes the reality!

Do you agree?

Now then to repent means to change from what one does into something different that one does after repenting. In other words repenting is making an "about face" and heading in a different direction. Why would one make such a change in direction? Because one's beliefs have changed!

You probably also think that repentance is forgiveness, well according to scriptures it is not! Confession of sins is what brings forgiveness. Just as your apologized for deleting my post, I was obligated to either forgive you or to not forgive you. I choose to forgive you because I believe in your sincerity, and repentant heart! Now it is up to you to demonstrate that you repent from doing that "sin" by not doing it again...for the same reason, of course. However, if you do do it again, and if you do confess again, I am obligated once again to make the decision to forgive or not forgive. That is the way God works regarding our sins. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. By forgiving you, I have exonerated you from guilt! By you not doing the same thing again, you give me no cause to hold you guilty. Do you see the truth of scripture here?

Your statement that Faith and Repentance bring salvation is therefore not true to scripture, but are a form of legalism. It is FAITH ALONE that brings about not only salvation but all the other works of the spirit. Nothing else is accomplished without first there is FAITH! [/QB][/QUOTE]

 

We are saved from sin (Matt 1:21).

We are saved to holiness, to righteousness, and to eternal life.

With the appropriate corrections that you overlooked.

Nope, it is not.

You deny man has to repent, but you insist man has to believe. Both are man doing something, by your definition. You are inconsistent. I believe man must both repent and believe and it is not a work of man becuase it is gift of God. Here is a place where being rigidly biblical keeps us from having to avoid the issues that you are avoiding.

How does this show Paul disagreeing??? Paul preached that all men needed to be saved. He agrees with men. And the reason why all need to be saved is exactly what you have quoted ... all have sinned.

Becaise of what you quoted above.

Yes, and that faith includes repentance.

Actually, repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of behavior. It is an about face. It happens because one surrenders to Jesus Christ for salvation.

Nope, I think nothing of th sort.

No because you didn't quote any.

But to the contrary, I quoted Scripture. In fact, I did nothing but quote Scripture. It says exactly what I said it says. It is you who has felt compelled to change it all around.

 

You deny man has to repent, but you insist man has to believe. Both are man doing something, by your definition. You are inconsistent. I believe man must both repent and believe and it is not a work of man because it is gift of God. Here is a place where being rigidly biblical keeps us from having to avoid the issues that you are avoiding.</font>[/QUOTE]Tell me, what effort does a man expend to believe? What effort does a man expend to repent?

Jesus is the one who made the connection between Salvation and Belief. I don't see in any of Jesus words where he says, "repent and you shall have eternal life". I do however see many instances where believers are told to confess sin, receive forgiveness, and repent from sinning. Don't forget, Jesus knew why he was "God with us", He knew ahead of time that he would die as the Once for All atonement for the sins of the world. Paul made the connection that because we know the reason that Jesus died, does not give us license to sin all the more.

What I deny is that unsaved man must repent in order to be saved!

 

Yelsew,

that is correct.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

correct

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

the "mind of Christ" comes with the "spirit" and "Body". much like a husband and wife; two become one.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

INCORRECT. The statement made was under the OT covenant. the promise was not towards receiving "eternal life". but a protection of life in their physical domain. It was offered to those following the Law. It could not deliver the people to eternal life. that came at the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Carnal man spirit is cursed. It produces unholy works. God is Just in destroying both the unholy spirit and unholy works. Yet God is not saving mans Carnal Spirit. He is offering Man a new Resurrected Spirit.

To Whom the offer is made to . Thats Gods Business.
Yet God desires all men to be saved. and Jesus Christ Took All Sin of All men into Death. therfore the offer should be made to all men.
That is the message I speak Of. God offering Man infinite Mercy.

of which my response is...

Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Phi 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Me2

 

Me2, I noticed that you did not post one single scripture attributed to Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ. Is there some reason you shun him in favor of Paul's writings?

 

Could it be that "all scripture is given by inspiration of God?" That would be my guess.

 

Could it be that "all scripture is given by inspiration of God?" That would be my guess. </font>[/QUOTE]We've been there skanwmatos, The scriptures may very well be inspired by God but they were not written by God. The letters written by Paul are Paul's writings. Such writing is the recording of Concepts, and Ideas. The original writings were not divided in to chapters and verses, but were the prose expression of those concepts and ideas. The books of James, 1&2 Peter, 1,2&3 John, Jude and Revelation are also instruction to the believer. HOWEVER, The books with the names Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, are essentially diaries of the events of Jesus' life among us. Included therein is the Gospel message from God! Virtually, all the rest of the New Testament are included to teach believers how to live the Christian life. Acts is written by Luke as a diary of the early church. Hebrews authorship remains in dispute.

With that said, it seems right to believe the words of Jesus contained in the books called the Gospels. Those dealing with Salvation are paramount to the very foundation of Christianity. The words of the other books are good for teaching the Christian life, but the Gospel message is what brings Salvation to the individual that receives them.

 

Uh OH!

If you are saying that the Gospels hold more weight than the rest of the NT (and I hope you are NOT saying this) then you are speaking and advocating heresy...pure and simple.

Blessings,

Archangel

 

Uh OH!

If you are saying that the Gospels hold more weight than the rest of the NT (and I hope you are NOT saying this) then you are speaking and advocating heresy...pure and simple.

Blessings,

Archangel [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Explain! How is it heresy to accept the words spoken by the ONLY begotten Son of God, the Christ, as the Gospel message to man?

The writings of the Apostolic authors of the rest of the New Testament have their basis of existance in the Writings of the Gospels, Matt, Mark, Luke and John. They do not present the Gospel message any better, but rather teach believers how to live a Christlike life.

 

Accepting them is no problem. That is not what you said or implied. You implied accepting them over/against the rest of the New Testament.

Here is the logical problem with that (I'm not even going to go into the scriptural problem for now):

Jesus didn't write any of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. Sure the books were faithfully written down under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. However this is the case with all the books.

Your arguement would presuppose that the gospels were super-inspired or that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were written by super-men.

Does not Paul say that "All" scripture is inspired by God...?

Ultimatly the Author of the Bible is God, not any man. Therefore, it all carries the same weight.

This is funny. Your conclusions are not logical and are flat wrong.

All of Paul's letters, Luke's writing, James, and 1+2 Peter were written BEFORE John (being written in the 90's). So if your arguement is based on the overall influence of the Gospels on the Epistle Writers, you have not one leg to stand on. Your arguement would be like saying Shakepeare based Hamlet on the Clinton Presidency. It is a non sequitur arguement. It is an inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises or evidence.

Now, it must be said that much of the Epistles IS dedicated to how to live the Christian life. But that holds no more or no less weight than the gospels.

The Christian is called to a "Whole-Bible" theology. This is a theology which examines the part in light of the whole.

Blessings,

Archangel

 

The Reason I dont use many of the scriptures in the 4 Gospels and revelations is that they as figurative and allegorical.

hate to say this folks but the scriptures are NOT FOR EVERYONE TO READ. thus are many concept a closed issue. try a word study on mystery or doctrine.

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.
Mar 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

truth still holds today.

the kingdom of God is a family based on two groups of "believers".

one group understands truth while the other group goobers it up.

Me2

 

Same in both cases since you cannot do one without the other. Both are the gift of God. They are not works of man. They are both conditions of the heart.

I quoted a whole bunch of them above and left most of them out. There are many places available for you to see.

I don't argue with any of that, but it is not the discussion here.

But you cannot deny what the Bible teaches to be true.

 

Repentance is much more than it is supposed in cheap grace scenarios. True Repentance represents a Godly sorrow and results in a turning from sin and to-ward God and Jesus Christ. This can only be operated successfully through the visitation of the Holy Spirit on any individual. It cannot be bought, given, offered or granted apart from having been bought through the Son of God giving himself through the eternal spirit and purchasing unto himself all the elect redeemed. It is offered only as far as it is proclaimed and folks already burdened with the reality of their separation from God (previous believers) then cry out by the Holy Spirit for Mercy through Christ.

The Gospel is not offered to anyone who is alien to God. This means anyone who has not the drawing to Christ has not God. (Rom. 8.9).

Bro. Dallas

 

We are saved from sin (Matt 1:21).</font>[/QUOTE]

What a miserable failure, we all, especially God's chosen people the children of Israel, still sin 2000 years later. Sins have not been taken away! We are not saved from sin, we live in it and many thrive from it! Matt 1:21 does not answer the question!

We are saved to holiness, to righteousness, and to eternal life.</font>[/QUOTE]I find none holy or righteous even among the clergy of 'the church'.

With the appropriate corrections that you overlooked.</font>[/QUOTE]You are dodging the basic issue Larry.

Nope, it is not.</font>[/QUOTE]don't be ignorant Larry, you are putting a requirement on "unregenerated man" that he does not have the remotest possibility of complying with. Remember, if unregenerated man cannot believe the word of God, he cannot repent of his sins in order to be saved by God. First of all he cannot recognize sin! If he cannot recognize sin what then does he repent from? How does he know he has repented from all sin if he cannot even recognize what sin is?

You deny man has to repent, but you insist man has to believe. Both are man doing something, by your definition. You are inconsistent. I believe man must both repent and believe and it is not a work of man because it is gift of God. Here is a place where being rigidly biblical keeps us from having to avoid the issues that you are avoiding.</font>[/QUOTE]In order to be saved, man does not have to repent of anything except unbelief which is canceled by belief. What does repenting cancel? Well first you have to determine what one repents from in order to determine what is canceled by repenting. I have never met a single human that has repented from ALL sin. Therefore I must conclude that man is not capable of repenting from enough sins to merit salvation. Since 'repentance' is an expression of internal remorse and guilt for past deeds, thoughts, and even beliefs, 'repentance' is not a work but is instead like belief. However, the act of 'repenting' is the turning away from, the changing direction, the stopping of a particular behavior, habit, characteristic, etc. So if unregenerated man is required to repent before his is saved, then no one ever gets saved, because no one ever gets to "completely sinless"!

How does this show Paul disagreeing??? Paul preached that all men needed to be saved. He agrees with men. And the reason why all need to be saved is exactly what you have quoted ... all have sinned.</font>[/QUOTE]Your use of the words 'only needed by sinners' implies that there are those who are not sinners. Paul clearly disagrees with that in saying that "ALL have sinned"

Because of what you quoted above.</font>[/QUOTE]Then we agree that ALL mankind sins, even to today 2000 years after Jesus "taketh away the sins of the world". Right? Well then, what are we saved from?

If Jesus did not take away the sins of the world, because we still sin, what is it that Jesus did? He paid the penalty of sin which is his death upon the cross ONE TIME for ALL the sins of the world for ALL times, for ALL mankind. Jesus took away the penalty for sin so that we do not have to pay that penalty ourselves! Not only for we who believe in Him, but for all mankind. Will our sins be judged? YES, in the same manner that all of our works are judged. But we, the what that Jesus came to seek and to save, are not judged with our works we are, instead spared from that judgment as if through fire. If we have no good works, then everything we have done is consumed, leaving only worthless ashes, be we are spared from the flames. All mankind will be tested in like manner, and then the final judgment which only the unbeliever must face before being cast into the lake of fire. Picture this, the test of our works both good and bad is the test where our sins are consumed by fire, therefore, when an unbeliever stands before the judgment throne of God, there will be only one charge against him, and that is his unbelief. God poses the question to each, "what did you do with my Son Jesus?" Because there is no possibility of lying to God, the only answer possible is "I did not believe Him". To which, God will say, be gone to lake of fire.

Well what about believers? John 3:18 answers that question. ALL who believe in Jesus are not judged! Yes, their deeds are tested, and many will, after their deeds are tested, be standing before Jesus with nothing but ash in their hands, having nothing to show for the wonderful gift of salvation that they received. But because they believe that Jesus is the Son of God the Christ, they themselves are saved from the lake of fire.

Yes, and that faith includes repentance.</font>[/QUOTE]By this scene yes, believing man will have experienced repentance (remorse, contriteness, guilt) because of what they did and how they were. However repentance did not cause man's salvation, it is the result of it! We are saved out of the way we were, which is being bound to death through sin, into eternal life, not because we repented, but because we believed! We repent because we believe, we do not believe because we repented.

Actually, repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of behavior. It is an about face. It happens because one surrenders to Jesus Christ for salvation.</font>[/QUOTE]Actually "repentance is remorse, contriteness, regret, and guilt", and as you have said in your last sentence, "It happens because one surrenders to Jesus Christ for Salvation." That is, one believes in Jesus (accepts the promise of salvation), then one suffers repentance, which brings about confession of sins, which results in Forgiveness and cleansing from ALL unrighteousness.

Nope, I think nothing of th sort.</font>[/QUOTE]Then why do you insist that repentance precedes salvation, which is believing in Jesus, even on his name?

No because you didn't quote any.</font>[/QUOTE]Define scripture, then tell me I didn't quote any.

But to the contrary, I quoted Scripture. In fact, I did nothing but quote Scripture. It says exactly what I said it says. It is you who has felt compelled to change it all around.</font>[/QUOTE]You may have quoted written words, but by including "repentance" into the salvation equation, have altered the scripture relative to Salvation. You indicate that God is not sufficient to save you without you doing something for salvation. God requires nothing of us UNTIL we believe in HIM, His Son and the HOLY SPIRIT! Once we believe, we are 'convicted', that is made repentant, remorseful, contrite, regretful, and thus guilty of our sins. We then must confess our sins to be forgiven of them, and forgiveness is what cleanses us from our unrighteousness. From that point forward we are to repent from the sins that we continue to do, 'our sins' as we do them and as the Holy Spirit convicts us of them. It is by that means that we are able to retain righteousness before the throne of God. If we do not do that, we fall back into sinfulness, which leads to unbelief that results in loss of salvation!

 

Repentance is not specific to religion! It is a condition of man's spirit. Anyone can be repentant relative to any topic. To say that Repentance represents "godly sorrow" says that God repents. And truly, the scriptures speak of God repenting that he made man, meaning that he was remorseful or contrite that what he created to be His highest created being, has failed Him so miserably.

Man cannot have that kind of remorse until man believes in God and is then convicted of his sins. He then has the obligation put upon him to be remorseful or not. It is not automatic you see, because man determines whether or not he regrets his actions. You see this daily in the high profile trials we have shoved into our livingrooms. Some people are remorseful, but many are not! Some are truly shamed by what they did, and many are just shamed because they got caught. Those who have repentance are truly remorseful for what they did that caused them to be judged as they are being judged. Others are simply shamed by being caught and have no repentance.

 

Does that mean that you do not understand the meaning of figurative and allagorical writings? Has the Holy Spirit not revealed to you the meanings?

If you do not understand figurative and allegorical writings, perhaps you should not be "reading" the scriptures. As for mystery or doctrine, It is mysterious if you are not open to it, and it is doctrine if you adhere to it. So, if you are mystified by scripture, you have not opened yourself to it, or you are afraid to "think it through". If you adhere to a doctrine, then you are closed to all that opposes that doctrine. REALLY SIMPLE, Huh!

Sure does!

Conjuring up something new about God's kingdom are you? God makes his Kingdom known to all who ask for it. Jesus gave us very clear, straight forward instruction relative to the Kingdom, He said, "Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, Knock and the door shall be opened for you."

Since you seem to be having difficulty with figurative and allegorical speech perhaps you should Ask, Seek and Knock. I have never been denied, not even once!

 

let me re-outline the story

FIrst comes faith because you have to believe that God is real, and that He is telling the truth

Well those demons happen to do that very well - so there must be something more

I state that it is repentance - ie the act of recognizing one's corrupt and sinful state, and one's inability to change it; and while desiring to change it, realize that God can through the blood of His Son.

 

No Sir, First you must accept the truth that there is a GOD! The demons know that very will because they were once heavenly angels.

FAITH comes to those who accept the truth (God's Word) and put their trust in the one who is true, Jesus.

If one comes to faith in JESUS, the Son of God, the Messiah, it is then that repentance, the remorse and contriteness one experiences by understanding that Jesus suffered the agony of death for the one, so that the one does not need to die for his sins. That repentance is a form of grieving for the one who died for you. It is in repentance that the covenant of God is established with the believer. It is at that point that the believer also covenants to be faithful to Jesus, to obey the principles of Christian living, in order to retain faith throughout this temporal natural life to the end of this life. It is that Faith condition of one's spirit when one leaves this life that saves them from the second death of being cast into the lake of fire. John 3:18 and Rev 20:14,15. Those who lack faith are judged and cast into the lake of fire. Those who HAVE FAITH are not judged. The scriptures say so!