Are Saints Called to Preach/Share the Gospel?

[JonC]

It was an accusation, not a disagreement. There is no evidence to your claims, that makes it an accusation.

"You are intentionally misrepresenting my comment to assert your pride and foolishly declare my intent". That would be an accusation (not, of course, that it is...I'm just offering an example).

My expression that "I think" they rely too much on theory and miss the boat on a few issues is voicing my opinion of disagreement. It remains merly opinion and intentionally unsubstantiated here (the comment points to me and not to Calvinism). It is not accusation by definition or context. There is nothing to "prove.". No evidence needed as it is a given those are my thoughts (the sentence is correct).

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Sorry brother, but the anti-missions movement (while experiencing a surge against the growing Methodist theology) was an overstatement of Calvinism and was never a majority view. You are looking at a small segment of history and applying to to the whole.

Brother Jon,

I agree with you and Bro Internet Theologian in that the anti-missions movements (which I happen to agree with) in the early 1800s was not the historical position of Calvinists. It is held by Primitive Baptists and Gospel Standard Baptists/Gospel Standard Strict Baptists. Also, as brother Internet Theologian has already pointed out Primitive Baptists do not typically even refer to themselves as "Calvinists", thus to extrapolate out our doctrine to Calvinism would be an error. We agree with Calvinists on the five points, but disagree on important points such as some Calvinists believe the gospel is an invitation, we disagree that the gospel is to both the elect and nonelect, some, but not all, Primitives and Gospel Standard Baptists also believe in the doctrine of eternal vital union (myself included) which most Calvinists do reject (or perhaps haven't even heard of), and some Calvinists (but not all) also believe in gospel regeneration or salvation by means, which all Primitives would also reject. In regards to legal justification, Primitives generally believe this occurred for the elect at the time of Christ's crucifixion/resurrection 2,000 years ago on that basis alone and justification by faith that occurs at the point of gospel belief is only of an experimental type in this time world, while Calvinists believe legal justification is on the grounds of faith in the gospel and occurs at this point. Other differences exist such as on Sunday schools, musical instruments in service, seminaries etc. Primitives oppose such while Calvinists generally do not.

 

[JonC]

Brother Jon,

I agree with you and Bro Internet Theologian in that the anti-missions movements (which I happen to agree with) in the early 1800s was not the historical position of Calvinists. It is held by Primitive Baptists and Gospel Standard Baptists/Gospel Standard Strict Baptists. Also, as brother Internet Theologian has already pointed out Primitive Baptists do not typically even refer to themselves as "Calvinists", thus to extrapolate out our doctrine to Calvinism would be an error. We agree with Calvinists on the five points, but disagree on important points such as some Calvinists believe the gospel is an invitation, we disagree that the gospel call to repent and believe the gospel is to both the elect and nonelect, some, but not all, Primitives and Gospel Standard Baptists also believe in the doctrine of eternal vital union (myself included) which most Calvinists do reject (or perhaps haven't even heard of), and some Calvinists (but not all) also believe in gospel regeneration or salvation by means, which all Primitives would also reject. In regards to legal justification, Primitives generally believe this occurred for the elect at the time of Christ's crucifixion/resurrection 2,000 years ago on that basis alone and justification by faith that occurs at the point of gospel belief is only of an experimental type in this time world, while Calvinists believe legal justification is on the grounds of faith in the gospel and occurs at this point. Other differences exist such as on Sunday schools, musical instruments in service, seminaries etc. Primitives oppose such while Calvinists generally do not.

Those are interesting distinctions that many ignore. I could also agree with the "five points" to an extent .... (although not "TULIP"), but in a different contest and for different reasons than most Calvinists. In fact, many who consider themselves Calvinists are in reality just agreeing with some points of that Calvinistic response at Dort.

The anti-mission movement was reactionary but it was not the primary view if Calvinists. Personally, I am thankful for those who helped to stall the influence of that movement. I also reject the doctrine of eternal vital union as error begetting error. But I also understand that many take Primitive Baptist belief out of context. People stereotype much too often and that is what has been done on this thread.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Living the life of a Christian is not fulfilling the great commission..

Hi Rev Mitchell,

Mark 16:15, “15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature”. What who was he speaking to? The apostles. The great commission was given specifically to the apostles and was fulfilled by them as a few verses later the same chapter tells us, “"20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen" (Mark 16:20). The gospel had been preached in all the world to every creature very early, Colossians 1:23 " If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister" (Colossians 1:23).

We do not have the power to properly fulfill the Commission even if we wanted to as we do not have the accompanying signs and wonders Jesus declared those preaching the commission would have when he gave them the commission in Mark 16, only the apostles had that, "17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;8 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." (Mark 16:17-19)

Why in the three Pastoral Epistles is there nothing even suggested of fulfilling the Great Commission by New Testament bishops and deacons?

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

John Eliot was a missionary sent to the American Indians in the 17th century. He is thought to be the first missionary among this people group.

David Brainerd was a missionary to the American Indians and it has been said that he sent more people into the mission field than any person in the history of the church due to his diary (An Account of the Life of the late Reverend David Brainerd).

Of course there is George Whitfield and the First Great Awakening.

William Carey translated the Bible into Bengali, Oriya, Assamese, Arabic, Hindi, and Sanskrit.

William Tennent founded the Log College (Princeton University) to train pastors.

Robert Moffat was the first missionary to reach the interior of Africa with the Gospel. He translated the Bible into Setswana.

Robert Morrison was the first Protestant missionary to China, and translated the Bible into Chinese.

Henry Martyn was a missionary to India and Persia.

Again, is there a specific time frame you we should look at to prove your point?

Excellent post. More recently, I think about Evangelism Explosion which was started back in the 1960's by D. James Kennedy, out of Coral Ridge Pres.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Do you know the story of Carey and the fight he went through with Calvinists who were anti missions? It was certainly the prevailing attitude among cals in his day.

I know his story very well indeed. Do you know that Carey was a Calvinist, that all the folk who supported him initially (like Andrew Fuller) were Calvinists and that Particular Baptist missions were up and running long before Arminian ones?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Those who are lost must call on the name of God and confess with their mouth and believe in their heart the Jesus is Lord.

Hi Rev,

Belief in something does not make a lost soul a saved soul. If I believe I can fly, is it true that I can then fly? Can you give me an example of anything else in this world that by one believing in it makes it true? We believe something because it is already a fact. If the objective fact of Christ's redemption was dependent upon man's perception of that fact, then perception determines reality.

The fact is the children of the devil cannot believe the gospel, this is why Jesus told the Pharisees, "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (John 8:43). Also, faith per scripture is a "fruit" of the spirit " (Gal 5:22), therefore one must first have the Spirit in him to produce the "fruit of the spirit". You have the cart before the horse. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16), here you would probably agree that baptism is only an evidence of one who "shall be saved", so it is with the other thing mentioned in this verse- faith. Likewise, Romans 10:9 is a statement of fact, not a condition to eternal life, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." If you believe this verse teaches conditions to become saved rather than a fact of someone who will be saved, then you also believe one must "confess Christ" in addition to believe and this would be a work to become saved. Just like confession of faith is a result of being saved so is belief.

 

[Revmitchell]

I know his story very well indeed. Do you know that Carey was a Calvinist, that all the folk who supported him initially (like Andrew Fuller) were Calvinists and that Particular Baptist missions were up and running long before Arminian ones?

Well I don't know about Arminian ones. I am not an arminain. However that does not change what I said.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

The Gospel is God's Redemptive plan through Christ. His sheep are saved because of it and through it His sheep grow in their knowledge of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Gospel started before the world was created and the Gospel is what will restore what God wills. Christ is the Gospel. The Gospel saves, sanctifies and glorifies. The Good news that God's Justice was satisfied on the Cross of Calvary and Eden is Opened back up to sinner and A relationship Can now be had with God again through our Lord Jesus Christ. .

Hi again Brother Jon,

The gospel means "good news". News is a declaration of facts that are published. Paul tells us what the gospel is and it is simply put the declaration that Christ died for the sins of His people and rose again, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

I see no offer here in what Paul describes as "the gospel", do you? If so, please show me where? No the gospel is a declaration of good news and facts to His sheep to tell them how they were redeemed by Christ.

Did Our Christ not give us a parable to explain the reality of our calling?

Hit up the Highway and the Hedges and compel them to come in. Come in to the "church house?" NO!! To enter into the Kingdom of God, To have their sins forgiven and given a New Spirit and a New Heart so they can see the Kingdom of God and The Glorious Christ who paid the penalty for their sins. God's righteousness is revealed through the Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is Good news to be believed, it is good news to be shared, it is good news to be obeyed. Sinners become Saints through the Glorious Gospel of Our Lord Jesus.

The parable you cited by Christ was given to set forth what those in the preceding chapter were employed to do, namely, that the kingdom was about to be taken away from the Jews and given to a nation (the Gentiles,) bringing forth the fruit thereof. “Go ye therefore into the highway,” &c. This accords with the apostle Paul's words when he asserted, " It was necessary that the gospel should be first preached to you; but seeing ye count yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo we turn unto the Gentiles for so hath God commanded,” (Acts 13:46) and also, "This stone must be first refused by the builders, and God would make it the head of the corner, and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence to them that stumbled at the word, being disobedient; whereunto they were appointed." (1 Peter 2:8). After the Jews had fulfilled what was written of them in relation to Christ, and stoning and slaying his disciples, and the messengers which were sent unto them, the great commission was given to the apostles by our Lord Jesus Christ, to go to another people, among the Gentiles, into the highways, and as many as ye find, (they that believe and are baptized.) bid to the marriage. The Jews as a people were utterly rejected, and Gentile sinners are compelled to come in, that his house may be full.

 

[JonC]

Well I don't know about Arminian ones. I am not an arminain. However that does not change what I said.

You "know" about the Calvinistic ones yet you are not a Calvinist.

And while nothing could change what you said, I think that there has been enough said to doubt its validity.

 

[Revmitchell]

You "know" about the Calvinistic ones yet you are not a Calvinist.

And while nothing could change what you said, I think that there has been enough said to doubt its validity.

Ok well I don't need you to believe it. You can hold on to what you want. Doesn't change the past or what many many people p believed and understood. I will go eat my supper and get a good nights sleep either way.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

I didn't see your reply to this?

2 Corinthians 4:3-7 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Brother Jon,

I didn't reply to it because you posted it in post 34 without replying or quoting to my post. You merely posted a scripture with no comments. Would you like me to do that or have I done that to you? Also, I do not see any of my points rebutted, but you just continue posting more scripture for me to reply to. I give a reply to your posts, then you do not tell me how my points are wrong, but then precede to quote more scripture, which I again reply to. This seems to me like a one way debate! Are you going to go back and rebuttal my points by showing me what scriptures I have wrongly interpreted along with their correct interpretation? I have done so for you.

As far as the scripture you have posted, it clearly states regarding the lost # 1) the gospel is "hid to them that are lost (2 Cor 4:3)" and 2) the lost have their minds "blinded" to the gospel Paul is preaching (2 Cor 4:4). Now that I have answered your post, please answer my questions, if Paul couldn't unhide his gospel to the lost or unblind their minds to his preaching of the gospel, how are you going to? Are you a greater evangelist than Paul?

 

[JonC]

Ok well I don't need you to believe it. You can hold on to what you want. Doesn't change the past or what many many people p believed and understood. I will go eat my supper and get a good nights sleep either way.

I'm sorry to have put it that way, I did mean it partly tongue in cheek.

History does, however, show anti-missions Calvinism to have been a short-term, reactionary movement that resonated with a hyper minority and actually found home in a smaller Baptist sect. This is not subjective, brother.

 

[Revmitchell]

I'm sorry to have put it that way, I did mean it partly tongue in cheek.

History does, however, show anti-missions Calvinism to have been a short-term, reactionary movement that resonated with a hyper minority and actually found home in a smaller Baptist sect. This is not subjective, brother.

ok well if that is what you want to hold on to then so be it. I'm good with that.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

And for the Record...We are talking about Sharing the Gospel with Lost people.

Brother Jon,

I know the topic of the thread is the gospel for the lost, however you basically said that I do not share the gospel at all here,

Two things don't want you to share the Gospel. The Flesh and satan. If you have beliefs that cause you to Not share the Gospel then it is either a man made doctrine or it is of the devil. Period.

I do share the gospel here to His sheep that are on this forum whomever they may be (and I believe you to be one and myself too if I be not deceived).

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Well I don't know about Arminian ones. I am not an arminain. However that does not change what I said.

It doesn't change what you said being wrong. Calvinists have always been at the forefront of evangelism. JohnC has given you several fine examples; I can give you a load more if you want. Why not read up on John Patton, the missionary to the New Hebrides (now Vanuatu)?

 

[Revmitchell]

It doesn't change what you said being wrong. Calvinists have always been at the forefront of evangelism. JohnC has given you several fine examples; I can give you a load more if you want. Why not read up on John Patton, the missionary to the New Hebrides (now Vanuatu)?

Ok. You can hold on to whatever you want. I do not have a need to have you believe anything. There is a reason that most folks believe cals are not very evangelistic. the list of names presented does not change that. If you want to hold on to something else I will feel the same way about as I do with John. I will go eat my supper and get a good nights sleep because of it. Not something to fight about.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Who are you to say who is the "elect?" Only those that show up at your church? Hog wash. I would love to know how you got so far from the simplicity of the Gospel?

Hi Brother Jon,

No, I do not believe God's children are confined to Primitive Baptist, they may be Calvinists, or Arminian. Paul's practice was to visit synagogues, where men already feared God (Acts 17:1-3). He is seen as the greatest preacher evangelist, but a study of the book of Acts will find him preaching only to worshippers and if people didn't believe in God or have no time for God, he had no interest in them. Paul wanted to preach to believers in Rome more than to others (Romans 1:15) Paul explained well that the gospel only benefits those already saved (1 Cor 1:18, 22-24). Paul prayer for deliverance from unbelievers, he had nothing for them. (2 Thess 3:-1-2). I share the gospel on this forum to His sheep, whomever they may be as I know there are children of God here.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Ok. You can hold on to whatever you want. I do not have a need to have you believe anything. There is a reason that most folks believe cals are not very evangelistic. the list of names presented does not change that. If you want to hold on to something else I will feel the same way about as I do with John. I will go eat my supper and get a good nights sleep because of it. Not something to fight about.

Well, it's good to know that being wrong doesn't worry you, which is possibly just as well.

 

[Revmitchell]

Well, it's good to know that being wrong doesn't worry you, which is possibly just as well.

There ya go. You get the last word. You're right, I'm wrong and since it has been posted on BB then the whole world knows and some sort of truth has been established. Good Job! Thumbsup