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Are some extrabiblical KJV-only assertions based on a form of divination?

MrW

Well-Known Member
Could the KJV-only claims based on claimed numeric patterns in the new 2024 book SEALED BY THE KING by Brandon Peterson involve use of something like divination?

Brandon Peterson wrote: “If there are numeric patterns that verify God’s inspiration of the original languages, what if there are patterns in this Bible [referring to the KJV] that is speaking to me and sanctifying me” (p. 4). Brandon Peterson declared: “The amount of numeric verifications is unreal” (p. 354). Brandon Peterson claimed: “It leaves little to no doubt in the Christian’s mind that God has specifically inserted numeric details in the Bible that have some sort of deeper meaning. And yet the meaning is not revealed in the text” (p. 353). Brandon Peterson appealed to a “ELS-code (Equidistant Letter Sequence)” “that spell out L-O-R-D” (p. 124). Peterson contended that “there are strong cases for them [ELS] in the Hebrew language” (p. 228).

Brandon Peterson asked: “What if we found signs and wonders, even miracles, in the King James Bible that point to God as its author?” (Sealed, p. 23). Peterson again asked: “What if the Holy Bible, and more specifically—the most influential version in history, is signed and sealed by God Himself?” (p. 24). Brandon Peterson claimed: “Every word in the King James Bible is placed by inspiration of God, including the italics” (p. 131). Brandon Peterson asserted: “The Authorized King James stands alone as the pure word of God, down to the last jot and tittle” (p. 340). Brandon Peterson asked: “Is it wrong to conclude that those concealed patterns are all miraculously pointing to God’s inspiration” (p. 478). Brandon Peterson claimed: “God chose to wait until His book was the most printed, read, and scrutinized book in world history before unveiling His perfect design within” (p. 391). G. John Rov asserted: “We have seen that the books, book order, chapters, verses, and words of the King James Bible are all divinely cut like facets of a jewel and set in exact place” (Concealed from Christians, p. 136).

Brandon Peterson wrote: “Several people have accused Bible numerics research as practicing ‘numerology’ or ‘divination’” (Sealed, p. 477). John Weldon maintained that there is a “problem with ‘code bibliomancy’—divination by Bible codes” (Decoding the Bible Code, p. 132). John Weldon asserted: “If the code constitutes a misuse of the biblical text, then it can be misused as a form of divination” (Ibid.). Brandon Peterson himself had seemed to connect Bible codes with numeric patterns. Claims concerning ELS Bible codes do seem to be a form of divination. David Cloud defined divination as “foretelling future events or discovering hidden knowledge through dreams, astrology, magic, etc.” (Concise KJB Dictionary, p.27). Unger’s Bible Dictionary defined divination “as the act of obtaining secret knowledge, especially of the future” (p. 271). According to these definitions, divination is not limited exclusively to foretelling the future since it can also include attempts to discover concealed special knowledge.

Can trying to discover concealed or hidden knowledge be regarded as being divination according to definitions of this term? Could trying to determine for certain the will of God concerning Bible translations by use of extrabiblical numeric patterns be considered divination? Implying that numeric patterns in effect predict and prove for certain the inspiration of the KJV could be regarded as a form of unscriptural divination (Deut. 18:10, 14). Asserting that numeric patterns are in effect God speaking or declaring which Bible translation is inspired could be like false prophets or diviners claiming to speak for God. Diviners and false prophets are sometimes connected in Scripture. Someone claiming God said something that He did not say could be considered a form of divination. Are numeric patterns used to put words in the mouth of God that He Himself does not state in the text of Scripture? When God seems to be declared ex cathedra as being the direct author of the KJV by means of numeric patterns, it could be regarded as an attempt to speak for God. The Scriptures clearly forbid divination (Deut. 18:10, 14; Lev. 19:26). John Weldon noted: “Clearly, if the God of the Bible prohibits divination, he cannot be the author of a Bible code that endorses it” (Decoding, p. 138). It is not the counting of chapters, verses, words, or letters that is considered divination. Instead, it would be any attempts to use the extrabiblical counts or numeric patterns as a means to divine God’s will or as a means to speak for God concerning Bible doctrine or truth that would be regarded as a possible form of divination. It would be the extrabiblical or nonscriptural assertions and claims based on the numeric patterns that are regarded as a seeming form of KJV-only divination. The numeric patterns are being misused to advocate blind acceptance of non-true, extrabiblical KJV-only opinions. Can believers be misled and deceived by extrabiblical KJV-only numeric divination?

In claiming that numeric patterns are a supernatural miracle directly from God, it seems to be suggested that God spoke through some form of numeric divination something that God does not reveal and state in His words of Scripture. Is it implied that divinely instituted numeric patterns are a way besides or beyond the inspired words of Scripture to gain additional direct knowledge and revelation from God? Is suggesting that believers can find “some sort of deeper meaning” in numeric patterns a form of divination, Gnosticism, or mysticism? Is it implied that God intentionally kept hidden the deeper meanings from numeric patterns until the invention of computers? Are the claimed divinely instituted numeric patterns indicated to be a superior revelation to what is in the text of Scripture? Could looking for extrabiblical numeric patterns be a philosophy of man since God did not command it? Does this appeal to extrabiblical numeric patterns in effect deny the sufficiency and completeness of all Scripture already given by inspiration of God to the prophets and apostles so that it is wrong? Attempting to bind the word of God in English to the textual criticism decisions, Bible revision decisions, and translation decisions of one exclusive group of Church of England men in 1611 would be wrong. Suggesting that God inspired words added by men in the KJV would be wrong according to scriptural truth (Prov. 30:6, Deut. 4:2, Deut. 12:32). When God and the Bible are silent concerning these “concealed” numeric patterns, perhaps believers would be wiser to stick with the meaning or sense of the words of Scripture. Does God assert in His word that numeric patterns should be claimed to be a miracle of God? Is searching for or believing in numeric patterns a command of God that believers should acknowledge (1 Cor. 14:37)?
It’s neither divination nor a supernatural miracle (redundant; any miracle, by definition is supernatural); it is simply mathematics made easier and faster with computers.

If God put mathematical witness in Scripture, that’s fascinating, yet in this life my main focus is obedience to the written Word, and let those who choose to do so find the math involved.

“Theomatics” is rather an interesting book on the meaning of certain numbers. Even the newest Christians likely note the number seven is used in Scripture as a symbol for perfection or completion, and would represent that in any version or language. Other numbers have Biblical meaning also, such as six representing man and sin, and 666 representing the man of sin in the end times. If there are CODES, though, in Scripture, I have not read anything on that topic.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
It’s neither divination nor a supernatural miracle (redundant; any miracle, by definition is supernatural); it is simply mathematics made easier and faster with computers.

If God put mathematical witness in Scripture, that’s fascinating, yet in this life my main focus is obedience to the written Word, and let those who choose to do so find the math involved.

“Theomatics” is rather an interesting book on the meaning of certain numbers. Even the newest Christians likely note the number seven is used in Scripture as a symbol for perfection or completion, and would represent that in any version or language. Other numbers have Biblical meaning also, such as six representing man and sin, and 666 representing the man of sin in the end times. If there are CODES, though, in Scripture, I have not read anything on that topic.
If there ever was and is some type of hidden bible code, then that means Yahweh chose to give to us a bible that could not be fully understood until 20 century. but always though the Holy Spirit illuiniates the scriptires to us, not IBM nor Apple?
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Could the KJV-only claims based on claimed numeric patterns in the new 2024 book SEALED BY THE KING by Brandon Peterson involve use of something like divination?

Brandon Peterson wrote: “If there are numeric patterns that verify God’s inspiration of the original languages, what if there are patterns in this Bible [referring to the KJV] that is speaking to me and sanctifying me” (p. 4). Brandon Peterson declared: “The amount of numeric verifications is unreal” (p. 354). Brandon Peterson claimed: “It leaves little to no doubt in the Christian’s mind that God has specifically inserted numeric details in the Bible that have some sort of deeper meaning. And yet the meaning is not revealed in the text” (p. 353). Brandon Peterson appealed to a “ELS-code (Equidistant Letter Sequence)” “that spell out L-O-R-D” (p. 124). Peterson contended that “there are strong cases for them [ELS] in the Hebrew language” (p. 228).

Brandon Peterson asked: “What if we found signs and wonders, even miracles, in the King James Bible that point to God as its author?” (Sealed, p. 23). Peterson again asked: “What if the Holy Bible, and more specifically—the most influential version in history, is signed and sealed by God Himself?” (p. 24). Brandon Peterson claimed: “Every word in the King James Bible is placed by inspiration of God, including the italics” (p. 131). Brandon Peterson asserted: “The Authorized King James stands alone as the pure word of God, down to the last jot and tittle” (p. 340). Brandon Peterson asked: “Is it wrong to conclude that those concealed patterns are all miraculously pointing to God’s inspiration” (p. 478). Brandon Peterson claimed: “God chose to wait until His book was the most printed, read, and scrutinized book in world history before unveiling His perfect design within” (p. 391). G. John Rov asserted: “We have seen that the books, book order, chapters, verses, and words of the King James Bible are all divinely cut like facets of a jewel and set in exact place” (Concealed from Christians, p. 136).

Brandon Peterson wrote: “Several people have accused Bible numerics research as practicing ‘numerology’ or ‘divination’” (Sealed, p. 477). John Weldon maintained that there is a “problem with ‘code bibliomancy’—divination by Bible codes” (Decoding the Bible Code, p. 132). John Weldon asserted: “If the code constitutes a misuse of the biblical text, then it can be misused as a form of divination” (Ibid.). Brandon Peterson himself had seemed to connect Bible codes with numeric patterns. Claims concerning ELS Bible codes do seem to be a form of divination. David Cloud defined divination as “foretelling future events or discovering hidden knowledge through dreams, astrology, magic, etc.” (Concise KJB Dictionary, p.27). Unger’s Bible Dictionary defined divination “as the act of obtaining secret knowledge, especially of the future” (p. 271). According to these definitions, divination is not limited exclusively to foretelling the future since it can also include attempts to discover concealed special knowledge.

Can trying to discover concealed or hidden knowledge be regarded as being divination according to definitions of this term? Could trying to determine for certain the will of God concerning Bible translations by use of extrabiblical numeric patterns be considered divination? Implying that numeric patterns in effect predict and prove for certain the inspiration of the KJV could be regarded as a form of unscriptural divination (Deut. 18:10, 14). Asserting that numeric patterns are in effect God speaking or declaring which Bible translation is inspired could be like false prophets or diviners claiming to speak for God. Diviners and false prophets are sometimes connected in Scripture. Someone claiming God said something that He did not say could be considered a form of divination. Are numeric patterns used to put words in the mouth of God that He Himself does not state in the text of Scripture? When God seems to be declared ex cathedra as being the direct author of the KJV by means of numeric patterns, it could be regarded as an attempt to speak for God. The Scriptures clearly forbid divination (Deut. 18:10, 14; Lev. 19:26). John Weldon noted: “Clearly, if the God of the Bible prohibits divination, he cannot be the author of a Bible code that endorses it” (Decoding, p. 138). It is not the counting of chapters, verses, words, or letters that is considered divination. Instead, it would be any attempts to use the extrabiblical counts or numeric patterns as a means to divine God’s will or as a means to speak for God concerning Bible doctrine or truth that would be regarded as a possible form of divination. It would be the extrabiblical or nonscriptural assertions and claims based on the numeric patterns that are regarded as a seeming form of KJV-only divination. The numeric patterns are being misused to advocate blind acceptance of non-true, extrabiblical KJV-only opinions. Can believers be misled and deceived by extrabiblical KJV-only numeric divination?

In claiming that numeric patterns are a supernatural miracle directly from God, it seems to be suggested that God spoke through some form of numeric divination something that God does not reveal and state in His words of Scripture. Is it implied that divinely instituted numeric patterns are a way besides or beyond the inspired words of Scripture to gain additional direct knowledge and revelation from God? Is suggesting that believers can find “some sort of deeper meaning” in numeric patterns a form of divination, Gnosticism, or mysticism? Is it implied that God intentionally kept hidden the deeper meanings from numeric patterns until the invention of computers? Are the claimed divinely instituted numeric patterns indicated to be a superior revelation to what is in the text of Scripture? Could looking for extrabiblical numeric patterns be a philosophy of man since God did not command it? Does this appeal to extrabiblical numeric patterns in effect deny the sufficiency and completeness of all Scripture already given by inspiration of God to the prophets and apostles so that it is wrong? Attempting to bind the word of God in English to the textual criticism decisions, Bible revision decisions, and translation decisions of one exclusive group of Church of England men in 1611 would be wrong. Suggesting that God inspired words added by men in the KJV would be wrong according to scriptural truth (Prov. 30:6, Deut. 4:2, Deut. 12:32). When God and the Bible are silent concerning these “concealed” numeric patterns, perhaps believers would be wiser to stick with the meaning or sense of the words of Scripture. Does God assert in His word that numeric patterns should be claimed to be a miracle of God? Is searching for or believing in numeric patterns a command of God that believers should acknowledge (1 Cor. 14:37)?
Very same logic an reasoning used by Muslims to claim their "perfect" Koran totals up to a certain set of numbers all of the time?
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
G. John Rov asserted: “We have seen that the books, book order, chapters, verses, and words of the King James Bible are all divinely cut like facets of a jewel and set in exact place” (Concealed from Christians, p. 136). Gary John Rov declared: “Narrowing in to the chapters, to the verses, to the words, to the letters, to the numbers, God forces us to deal with the miracles and wonders and signs of the King James Bible” (p. xii). G. John Rov wrote: “In this book, there has been many foregone conclusions and confirmations as a result of counting which have enhanced meaning, and guided wisdom into the King James Bible as the very word of God. We have sampled the counting of books of the Bible, chapters of the Bible, words of the Bible, letters of the Bible. We have even sample counting the simple gematria of the destination language of English in the Bible” (p. 144). Kevin Mann claimed: “There is nothing accidental about the placement of the numbers, or words, or chapter and verse numbering in the King James Holy Bible” (First Mention Study Bible, Vol. I, p. 48). Peter Ruckman wrote: “The AV is unique in that not only can a numeric system be found in its Hebrew and Greek texts, but also in the chapter and verse numberings of its text, which sometimes extends to the number of words in a verse” (Bible Babel, p. 85). Peter Ruckman concluded: “I am convinced, by common sense, that God had His hand on its numerical divisions, into chapters and verses” (p. 90). Brandon Peterson asked: “What if we found signs and wonders, even miracles, in the King James Bible that point to God as its author?” (Sealed, p. 23). Brandon Peterson claimed: “All of these miracles verify to the world that the KJB is the book of the LORD, signed and sent by God” (p. 35).

The statement of the Lord Jesus Christ recorded in Matthew 23:35 and Luke 11:51 would refer to the order of the OT books as found in the Jewish or Hebrew canon. From the death of Abel (Gen. 4:8) would be from the first book of the Jews OT canon [Genesis] to the death of Zachariah (2 Chron. 24:20-22) in the last book of their canon [2 Chronicles]. Did Jesus indicate approval of the order of OT books as found in the Hebrew canon instead of the order of books later introduced in the Greek Septuagint and Latin Vulgate and later followed in the KJV? F. F. Bruce observed: “There is evidence that Chronicles was the last book in the Hebrew Bible as Jesus knew it” (Canon of Scripture, p. 31). F. F. Bruce claimed that “Zechariah was not chronologically the last faithful prophet to die as a martyr”, …”but Zechariah is canonically the last faithful prophet to die as a martyr, because his death is recorded in Chronicles, the last book of the Hebrew Bible” (Ibid.).

Does the claimed miracle of an inspired order of Old Testament books in the KJV suggest that Jesus was mistaken since a faithful prophet named Urijah was put to death by Jehoiakim in Jerusalem (Jer. 26:20-23) after Zechariah in the KJV’s order of OT books?
Think that the obvious answer would be No
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Could the KJV-only claims based on claimed numeric patterns in the new 2024 book SEALED BY THE KING by Brandon Peterson involve use of something like divination?

Brandon Peterson wrote: “If there are numeric patterns that verify God’s inspiration of the original languages, what if there are patterns in this Bible [referring to the KJV] that is speaking to me and sanctifying me” (p. 4). Brandon Peterson declared: “The amount of numeric verifications is unreal” (p. 354). Brandon Peterson claimed: “It leaves little to no doubt in the Christian’s mind that God has specifically inserted numeric details in the Bible that have some sort of deeper meaning. And yet the meaning is not revealed in the text” (p. 353). Brandon Peterson appealed to a “ELS-code (Equidistant Letter Sequence)” “that spell out L-O-R-D” (p. 124). Peterson contended that “there are strong cases for them [ELS] in the Hebrew language” (p. 228).

Brandon Peterson asked: “What if we found signs and wonders, even miracles, in the King James Bible that point to God as its author?” (Sealed, p. 23). Peterson again asked: “What if the Holy Bible, and more specifically—the most influential version in history, is signed and sealed by God Himself?” (p. 24). Brandon Peterson claimed: “Every word in the King James Bible is placed by inspiration of God, including the italics” (p. 131). Brandon Peterson asserted: “The Authorized King James stands alone as the pure word of God, down to the last jot and tittle” (p. 340). Brandon Peterson asked: “Is it wrong to conclude that those concealed patterns are all miraculously pointing to God’s inspiration” (p. 478). Brandon Peterson claimed: “God chose to wait until His book was the most printed, read, and scrutinized book in world history before unveiling His perfect design within” (p. 391). G. John Rov asserted: “We have seen that the books, book order, chapters, verses, and words of the King James Bible are all divinely cut like facets of a jewel and set in exact place” (Concealed from Christians, p. 136).

Brandon Peterson wrote: “Several people have accused Bible numerics research as practicing ‘numerology’ or ‘divination’” (Sealed, p. 477). John Weldon maintained that there is a “problem with ‘code bibliomancy’—divination by Bible codes” (Decoding the Bible Code, p. 132). John Weldon asserted: “If the code constitutes a misuse of the biblical text, then it can be misused as a form of divination” (Ibid.). Brandon Peterson himself had seemed to connect Bible codes with numeric patterns. Claims concerning ELS Bible codes do seem to be a form of divination. David Cloud defined divination as “foretelling future events or discovering hidden knowledge through dreams, astrology, magic, etc.” (Concise KJB Dictionary, p.27). Unger’s Bible Dictionary defined divination “as the act of obtaining secret knowledge, especially of the future” (p. 271). According to these definitions, divination is not limited exclusively to foretelling the future since it can also include attempts to discover concealed special knowledge.

Can trying to discover concealed or hidden knowledge be regarded as being divination according to definitions of this term? Could trying to determine for certain the will of God concerning Bible translations by use of extrabiblical numeric patterns be considered divination? Implying that numeric patterns in effect predict and prove for certain the inspiration of the KJV could be regarded as a form of unscriptural divination (Deut. 18:10, 14). Asserting that numeric patterns are in effect God speaking or declaring which Bible translation is inspired could be like false prophets or diviners claiming to speak for God. Diviners and false prophets are sometimes connected in Scripture. Someone claiming God said something that He did not say could be considered a form of divination. Are numeric patterns used to put words in the mouth of God that He Himself does not state in the text of Scripture? When God seems to be declared ex cathedra as being the direct author of the KJV by means of numeric patterns, it could be regarded as an attempt to speak for God. The Scriptures clearly forbid divination (Deut. 18:10, 14; Lev. 19:26). John Weldon noted: “Clearly, if the God of the Bible prohibits divination, he cannot be the author of a Bible code that endorses it” (Decoding, p. 138). It is not the counting of chapters, verses, words, or letters that is considered divination. Instead, it would be any attempts to use the extrabiblical counts or numeric patterns as a means to divine God’s will or as a means to speak for God concerning Bible doctrine or truth that would be regarded as a possible form of divination. It would be the extrabiblical or nonscriptural assertions and claims based on the numeric patterns that are regarded as a seeming form of KJV-only divination. The numeric patterns are being misused to advocate blind acceptance of non-true, extrabiblical KJV-only opinions. Can believers be misled and deceived by extrabiblical KJV-only numeric divination?

In claiming that numeric patterns are a supernatural miracle directly from God, it seems to be suggested that God spoke through some form of numeric divination something that God does not reveal and state in His words of Scripture. Is it implied that divinely instituted numeric patterns are a way besides or beyond the inspired words of Scripture to gain additional direct knowledge and revelation from God? Is suggesting that believers can find “some sort of deeper meaning” in numeric patterns a form of divination, Gnosticism, or mysticism? Is it implied that God intentionally kept hidden the deeper meanings from numeric patterns until the invention of computers? Are the claimed divinely instituted numeric patterns indicated to be a superior revelation to what is in the text of Scripture? Could looking for extrabiblical numeric patterns be a philosophy of man since God did not command it? Does this appeal to extrabiblical numeric patterns in effect deny the sufficiency and completeness of all Scripture already given by inspiration of God to the prophets and apostles so that it is wrong? Attempting to bind the word of God in English to the textual criticism decisions, Bible revision decisions, and translation decisions of one exclusive group of Church of England men in 1611 would be wrong. Suggesting that God inspired words added by men in the KJV would be wrong according to scriptural truth (Prov. 30:6, Deut. 4:2, Deut. 12:32). When God and the Bible are silent concerning these “concealed” numeric patterns, perhaps believers would be wiser to stick with the meaning or sense of the words of Scripture. Does God assert in His word that numeric patterns should be claimed to be a miracle of God? Is searching for or believing in numeric patterns a command of God that believers should acknowledge (1 Cor. 14:37)?
Have you ever looked into the amazing similarities between how the Kjvo get their positions and basis for how they view the 1611 as being perfect, and just how Muslims use pretty much same views to equate their Koran with perfetion revelation from God?
 

MrW

Well-Known Member
If there ever was and is some type of hidden bible code, then that means Yahweh chose to give to us a bible that could not be fully understood until 20 century. but always though the Holy Spirit illuiniates the scriptires to us, not IBM nor Apple?
In the last days, knowledge shall increase, per the prophet, Daniel. True in the secular and the spiritual, apparently.
 

MrW

Well-Known Member
Have you ever looked into the amazing similarities between how the Kjvo get their positions and basis for how they view the 1611 as being perfect, and just how Muslims use pretty much same views to equate their Koran with perfetion revelation from God?
The Koran portrays a radically different “God” than revealed in the New Testament, for example, so I don’t examine any claims made by them. No need. What is written and easily understood is evil enough.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
The Koran portrays a radically different “God” than revealed in the New Testament, for example, so I don’t examine any claims made by them. No need. What is written and easily understood is evil enough.
Agreed, as Allah really Satan under different name, but weas just suggesting how ironic both groups claiming same perfection for their "holy book"
 

Dr. Bob

Administrator
Administrator
Note: According to the imam the Koran is perfect in Arabic, NOT in translation. Every Muslim MUST learn to read Koran in "inspired" language.

He gave me a copy of English translation for our students to read. (We taught comparative religion and took class to mosque, synagogue, Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, JW, and Messianic service/site interview. Students had to attend minimum 4 of the 8 as course requirement. EVERY student said this was one of the best courses in our college and full class each spring semester I taught t)
 

Deacon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Note: According to the imam the Koran is perfect in Arabic, NOT in translation. Every Muslim MUST learn to read Koran in "inspired" language.

He gave me a copy of English translation for our students to read. (We taught comparative religion and took class to mosque, synagogue, Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, JW, and Messianic service/site interview. Students had to attend minimum 4 of the 8 as course requirement. EVERY student said this was one of the best courses in our college and full class each spring semester I taught t)
My, times have changed!

As a public school elementary student in Cincinnati, Ohio, we were brought to a number of different places of worship...I don't think a mosque was one of them though, maybe???

We also sang the first verse of My Country Tis Of Thee each morning... and recited the pledge of Allegiance.

And of course, a couple of time a years we would duck under our desks to protect ourselves from a simulated nuclear attack.

Rob
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Note: According to the imam the Koran is perfect in Arabic, NOT in translation. Every Muslim MUST learn to read Koran in "inspired" language.

He gave me a copy of English translation for our students to read. (We taught comparative religion and took class to mosque, synagogue, Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, JW, and Messianic service/site interview. Students had to attend minimum 4 of the 8 as course requirement. EVERY student said this was one of the best courses in our college and full class each spring semester I taught t)
Yes, they indeed equate with Arabic text of Koran same perfection as KJVO with the 1611 Kjv text
 
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