Are terrorists more evil than Jewish rabbis?

[Dr. Bob]

Agree, Abiyah -

Learning how to CONTEND for the faith without being CONTENTIOUS is a fine art that often only develops with age and maturity.

I also find that as I discern error and focus on CRITICISM, I in turn develop the error of having a CRITICAL SPIRIT - a fault that might be "more evil" than that which I criticized!

 

[Grasshopper]

What I am trying to say is that the Lord is working with His people, the Jews.

I guess that is where people like me have a problem. I believe God's people are His sheep, whether they be Jew or Gentile. So I see no difference between a lost Rabbi or a lost Muslim. We are in the New Covenant, not the Old. If Jews are His people, where does that leave Gentiles? Not His people?

 

[Abiyah]

No, Grasshopper. Never, Grasshopper. But our
God called out the Jews. He gave them
responsibility for both the Word Made Flesh and
the Written Word. He made everlasting covenants
with the Jews, and our God never breaks His word.
He is no more surprised by Jewish history than He
is by Gentile history! It was all set, foreseen,
ordained from the beginning. He said of the one
who curses Israel that they be cursed.

His many promises to the Jews remain, one of
which is: "If My people who are called by My
name shall humble themselves and pray, and
seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways:
then will I hear from heaven and will forgive, and
will heal their land."

To the Gentiles, He says, "And if some of the
branches be broken off, and you, being a wild
olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with
them partake of the root and fatness of the olive
tree, boast not against the branches. But if you
boast, you bear not the root, but the root thee."

The Jews who are and will be our God's people
have no more value to Him than those our God
has grafted in. But why disparage a whole group
of people and mark bitter statements against
them, especially when our God says that He will
curse those who curse them?

May our God bless all of you! I ask that you use
wisdom and knowledge. Don't be so quick to
cast judgment on a people.

Preach, I forgive, if it matters. 8o)

 

[Grasshopper]

His many promises to the Jews remain

Do these also remain?

Jeremiah 23
40 I will bring upon you everlasting disgrace-everlasting shame that will not be forgotten."


Jeremiah 25
9 I will summon all the peoples of the north and my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon," declares the LORD , "and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants and against all the surrounding nations. I will completely destroy [1] them and make them an object of horror and scorn, and an everlasting ruin.

The Jews who are and will be our God's people

We seem to keep coming back to this.

Who is a Jew? Are children of Abraham considered Jews?

Gal.3
6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[1] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.

Romans 2
28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9
7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[1] 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

Seems to me a non-physical Jew can be a Jew, while a physical Jew can not be a Jew.
How is this possible? The New Covenant age is made up of "Spritual Jews", and " Spiritual Israel".

But why disparage a whole group of people and mark bitter statements against

I agree and have not done so, but the Palestinians have taken a beating around here by others.

P.S. I'm a big supporter of Israel and side with them on most issues. Not because they are God's chosen, but because they are a democracy unlike their Arab neighbors.

 

[LadyEagle]

I would much rather ride on a bus with a REAL Jewish rabbi than with a Muslim terrorist (dressed like a Jewish rabbi), as what happened yesterday in Jerusalem.

One thing is forgotten in this thread:

With a Jewish rabbi, a Christian at least has a common ground for discussion, i.e., is the Messiah coming for the first time or the second time. A Jewish rabbi won't try to kill me and no where in the Torah does it say to kill Christians.

With a Muslim terrorist there is no common ground for discussion - he/she has an already determined mandate in the Quran to kill Christians and Jews.


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

http://www.jerusalemprayerteam.org

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

The question is emotionally charged. It pits Israel vs terrorists and makes us ask whether or not they are worse than terrorists. That is what it looks like to me based on the wording. But if you look at what Daniel is really saying or asking, you will see that he is not asking us if Jews are terrorists or worse than terrorists. He is asking us about the spiritual condition of Jews who don't accept Christ. To that, I would respond that they are no better or no worse than any other group of people who reject Christ. There is one way to the Father and that is through Christ the Son. If, however, you are asking us whether or not we would rather live next to an Orhtodox Jew or a Muslim Terrorist, I would choose the Orhtodox Jew. I support Israel, not because of Pre-millenialism (since I am a partial preterist), but because they are a democratic society which should be allowed to defend themselves against Muslim Terrorists just as much as America did. But, I don't think Daniel is really asking about which is the better group to be around who is more hoospitable. I think he is referring to the spiritual condition of Jews who reject Christ. As a side note, we have several Orthodox Jews as friends and family, and have never had a single one ever try to convert us and get us to reject Christ. When you talk to them, most will tell you that they are against prosylitizing, but if you are interested and ask, they will share their faith with you. I will say, though, that Abiyah is correct, that there are several Jews I know who are becoming more open to the Gospel of Christ. If you approach them as friends and live as a Christian should live, God will eventually open doors to witness to them as he has for my wife and I. Not all Jews are so hostile to Christians. My experience is that many American Jews are very hostile toward Christians whereas the Jews who immigrated from Israel have a much more open and accepting mind to those of other faiths such as Christianity.

Joseph Botwinick

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Abiyah:
Being a member of a Baptist-based Torah-
observant Synagogue, I just ask you not to be
quite so adament in your assessment of rabbis.
Such all-encompassing assumptions and
statements may truly hurt the cause of the
Messiah.

Having read your post and having interacted with you before, I must disagree with you very strongly.

Imagine you were reared in a society in which His name was slandered, but you, through
personal study, are starting to see that this Man
is the Messiah. If you admit it publicly, you lose your family. You lose your friends. You lose your colleagues. All your life -- from childhood! -- you have studied to be a rabbi, seeing it as a good, godly, upright position, but you will, by your admission, lose 98% of your congregation and your livlihood. While you live, they will have your funeral and your name will forever be erased from their lips.

Is this not a small price to pay for the one who endured all that and more?? Christ himself set the example by being public with all of these things and losing his friends and family in the process. He came unto his own and they did not receive him.

The fact that a Jew who accepts Christ will be rejected by his family is no cause for staying in a godless system. They must confess and come out. To do otherwise is to lack the proper response. Christ said this explicitly in his teaching. If someone accepts his teaching, no other response is acceptable.

The church will not accept you. You are, after all, a Jew and do not go to church on Sunday because Sabbath is your day of rest, you will not do Christmas, you do holy days Christians don't understand and do not try, and they do not understand your funny clothes and hair style. To them, you are an interesting anomaly, an oddity, but they have no place for you. To be one of them, you must comply with their social rules, but you cannot. So you watch and wait.

What Christian church will not accept a converted Jew?? Everything you mention here is explicitly condemned by Paul in teh NT. He condemned people who thought things such as you put forth here. He explicitly told the church not to follow these kinds of teaching. Yet you are defending them.

To claim that they cannot join teh church because their day of rest is teh Sabbath is to directly ignore the commands of the NT. There is no longer Jew or Greek in the church; all are one body. For a Jew to refuse to unite and worship with the church on whatever day they meet is simply disobedience. I know that is strong and I do not mean to be offensive but this is an area where we cannot slice the Scripture.

Meanwhile, you note that Christians, while rejecting Jews with inaccurate accusations,
are not a very friendly bunch. Then you realize
that Jews are the most neglected in all Christian
outreaches in all of time. You recall the political and social sanctions, done in the name of Christianity. And when they do try to convert you, the first thing they tell you is to stop doing Passover and start doing Easter, or you're
pagan; stop doing Sabbath and do Sunday because Sunday is traditional.

Again, notice have you have put the Law above the NT teachings. To refuse to quit celebrating Passover in teh Jewish sense is to hang on to the Law. We do not celebrate Passover because Christ is our passover, our paschal lamb. If you want to celebrate it culturally, then so be it, I suppose. But to use that as an excuse to nullify the NT commands of church involvement cannot be substantiated from Scripture. To refuse to worship on Sunday is to forsake the assembling of yourselves together. To refuse to give up Jewish customs is to ignore the teaching that jew and Gentile are now one. It seems you must admit that the Jewish island mentality is prevalent in the Messianic Jewish congregations. You are as unwilling to accept other churches as you claim they are unwilling to accept you. The Jews have not been left out of any outreach in any church that I know of. The Jews are like everyone else. They need Christ as their Savior. If they have received him, then they need to be a functional part of a NT church.

I think your objections were adequately addressed in teh NT writings under the inspiration of teh Spirit. While I intend no harshness towards you, I find your positions very very close to what Paul condemned as being incompatible with Christianity.

[ June 13, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Tim]

I don't believe we are disparaging a group of people when we denounce Judaism. Rather, we are recognizing the false religious ideas they have embraced.

We do the same with Muslims when we denounce Islam.

And going beyond traditional religions, we should do the same with homosexuals.

It's not that we despise the people--we just reject the error that holds them in bondage.

In Christ,

Tim