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Are the Church and the Kingdom the Same?

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EdSutton

New Member
Originally posted by Bro Tony:
The Church is not the Kingdom of God, it is in the Kingdom but it is not the Kingdom. Old Testament Israel is apart of the Kingdom, but it is not the Church. The tribulation saints are in the Kingdom, but they are not the Church. Millenial saints are in the Kingdom, but they are not the Church. The Kingdom consist of the saved of all ages. The Church was birthed at Pentecost and will leave at the rapture. Now how is that for a dispensational view of Scripture.

Duck INCOMING!!!!
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Bro Tony
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I can buy that.

Ed
 
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Bro Tony

New Member
"I guess that Bro. Tony and I just contrasted Dispensationalist and non-Dispensationist views."---Dave's quote


Its okay, I love you anyway brother!
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Bro Tony
 
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Bro Tony

New Member
"The kingdom belongs to Jesus. I would agree with you on the reign and rule.

Who else do you envision to be part of the Kingdom? I believe it to be all of God's people; past, present and future. Old testament believers were not called Christians, but were Israelites who were saved through faith as detailed in Hebrews 11."--Dave's quote

Actually Dave, you and I said the same thing. I agree that all God's people past, present and future are apart of the Kingdom. I just stated it that they are not all the Church. Again the Church is part of the Kingdom it is not the Kingdom.

Blessings,

Bro Tony
 
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Brother Bob

New Member
which part of the Kingdom is not a part of the church, is it Jesus,God or the Holy Spirit that is not a part of the church? I was just wondering.
 
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Bro Tony

New Member
which part of the Kingdom is not a part of the church, is it Jesus,God or the Holy Spirit that is not a part of the church? I was just wondering.
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I am having a hard time understanding your question in light of what I shared. If you are not referring to my post then forgive me. I never said that the Kingdom was ever without the Father, Son or Holy Spirit. The question was are the Kingdom of God and the Church the same. The Church has not always been, the Kingdom of God has always been. If one precedes the other it make sense that they could not be the same. Again, the Church is part of the Kingdom of God it is not the Kingdom of God. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are eternal and the creator of all things---including the Kingdom of God.

Bro Tony
 
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Bro Tony

New Member
while the door to the church is water baptism.
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Am I the only one who did not catch this? What is this about?
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I caught it too, and thought someone else would address it. The door into the Church is not water baptism---the door into the Church is Jesus.

Bro Tony
 
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Brother Bob

New Member
Sorry Bro Tony;
I was referring to you mostly but "how can you have a part of a Kingdom", is my question? What else makes up the Kingdom if you know. Also, I am having trouble understanding all those that were baptized before The day of Penecost, including Jesus and what He told Peter. It may of not been called a church but there has always been a religeous body of faith believers from Abel at least.

Bill Brown:
quote:
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while the door to the church is water baptism.
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Am I the only one who did not catch this? What is this about?
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That is "Church of Christ Doctrine"
 
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Bill Brown

New Member
Originally posted by Bro Tony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> while the door to the church is water baptism.
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Am I the only one who did not catch this? What is this about?
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I caught it too, and thought someone else would address it. The door into the Church is not water baptism---the door into the Church is Jesus.

Bro Tony </font>[/QUOTE]Amen Tony! If we say that water baptism provides entrance into the church then we are adding works to the gospel. Why? Because every believer is part of the church. The church was was created by God, not man...therefore man cannot create his rules on how to gain entry to the church.

Galatians 1:8-9 8 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
 
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Bro Tony

New Member
Sorry Bro Tony;
I was referring to you mostly but "how can you have a part of a Kingdom", is my question? What else makes up the Kingdom if you know. Also, I am having trouble understanding all those that were baptized before The day of Penecost, including Jesus and what He told Peter. It may of not been called a church but there has always been a religeous body of faith believers from Abel at least.
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Sorry brother, let me see if I can explain my point better. I too believe you cannot have a part of the Kingdom. I believe all the Old Testament Saints were and are in the Kingdom, I dont believe they were in the Church. Even in the Book of Acts the Baptism of John is referred to as different than the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (ie. the Spirit bringing the believer into the Body of Christ, not referring to Pentecostal/Charismatic view of baptism). The Kingdom is and always has been complete. My point is in response to the op----is the Church and the Kingdom the same. Seeing as the Kingdom precedes the Church they cannot be the same. The O.T. saints who are part of the Kingdom did not know nor were they a part of the Church. Were they God's people? Yes. Were they in the Kingdom? Yes. Were they saved by grace through faith? Yes. Were they members of the Church? No. One cannot be apart of something that did not exist for them. I hope that clarifies my points. I know not everyone will agree, but I did want to share.

Blessings,
Bro Tony
 
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Brother Bob

New Member
Bro Tony;
I suspect that the majority if not all on this board might agree with you about when the church started, but I for one, believe that Christ took the church from out from under the Law to the Grace Covenant. According to the Scripture, the middle wall was torn down that we might become a part of vine as they already were, or at least those that received Jesus as the Christ. Also, they were all baptized in the clouds in the days of Moses and were even called preachers, as Noah was a preacher of righteous. I just believe He took the Church and established it up on better promises.

Acts, chapter 28
"25": And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers ,
"26": Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:


2 Peter, chapter 1
20": Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
"21": For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost .

They were moved or overshadowed by the Holy Ghost and we have the Holy Ghost within us. It was in the flesh for them but in the spirit for us.

I really must duck now!!
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Bro Tony

New Member
Thanks for sharing Brother Bob. There are those who agree with you on here. My point is that there has never been a time without the Kingdom, but the church was birthed at Pentecost. The Spirit of God has always been, and since creation has been moving upon the hearts of men. But the Body of Christ, ie the Church, was established by Christ after His Resurrection. I agree with your understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit in the OT as compared to the NT.

A side thought----wow we get to celebrate the Resurrection of Christ this Sunday with our brothers and sisters in Christ. Thank you Jesus. I am also glad that I am privileged to live in and celebrate Jesus' Resurrection everyday and on into eternity. Thank you Jesus!

Bro Tony
 
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Brother Bob

New Member
Bro Tony;

Amen, to your side thought, I too am thankful. I also respect your belief on the Church, you certainly are not alone but I have always preached that since Abel (at least) there has been a Church. Your beliefs are close to mine except what you call it, I think.

God Bless you and yours on this Blessed weekend,
Bro Bob
 
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Bill Brown

New Member
Hey guys - just getting in my .2 cents (.1857 cents after inflation) on when the church started. I believe God has always had a covenant people which are saved on the basis of faith. I trace this all the way back to Adam. Even within Israel saints were saved by grace through faith. That faith was in the coming Redeemer, even if they did not know what we know today. In fact even Gentiles were able to come to God on the basis of faith in the O.T. (witness Rahab, Ruth, the Ninevehites and Nebuchadnezzer). Christ displayed a better way by completing (pefecting)what was promised. But whether we disagree on when the church was started, I am sure we are all agreed that salvation is on the basis of grace through faith in Christ and Christ alone. Maranantha!
 
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Tom Butler

New Member
I apologize for posting the OP, then running off. I'm just now getting back to read all the posts. Very interesting, to say the least.

I want to respond to Bro. Tony's assertion that the church was birthed on the day of Pentecost. That of course is the dispy view and widely held. I disagree.

I believe Jesus founded his church during his earthly ministry. I believe it occurred the moment he picked his first disciple. What did they have on Pentecost that was not already in existence beforehand. They had a Head, Christ Jesus, the Pastor (Shepherd); they had a treasurer, they had a message, they were empowered by Jesus to preach, heal and cast out demons. They had the ordinances--baptism and the Lord's Supper.

In Matthew 16, Jesus did not say to the disciples, "on this rock I will establish my church." He said "build my church," an entity already in existence.

I also believe the church is a visible assembly, and that each New Testament Assembly is not just a church, it is THE church. And some of you picked up my statement that baptism is the door to the church, as if this was new, probably heretical stuff.

That's because the dispy proof text for the Pentecost founding of the church is I Cor 12:13 "For by one Spirit we are are all baptized into one body...." That same passage should probably be rendered "for in one spirit, we are all baptized into one body." The Greek "en" can be translated "in" just as easily as it can be "by." And I don't believe the one spirit is the Holy Spirit. It is a spirit of unity which characterizes a true body of Christ.

And the baptism is not Spirit baptism (the HS never baptized anybody), but water baptism. Therefore, water baptism is the means of entry into the body, the visible assembly.

By the way, this is not new stuff. This was a widely held view by a huge number of Baptists over the past two hundred years, and is still held by many Baptists today, including several contributors to this board.


Okay, I'm running for cover now. When the bombing pauses, I'll come out of the bunker.
 
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Tom Butler

New Member
To follow up on my previous post, in which I said the Holy Spirit never baptized anybody with Himself:

We have more than reference to Jesus baptising with the Holy Spirit John 1:33, Mark 1:8.

One might say hold on, the manifestation of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was exactly that--the people being baptized by by the HS. On the contrary, it a fulfillment of Mark 1:8. People were baptized with or in the HS, not by Him.

I also think the KJV rendering of I Cor 12:13 has contributed to the confusion between the church and the kingdom. They are not the same.
 
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