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Are the elect the only ones saved?
- Thread starter romanbear
- Start date
Ray Berrian
New Member
It appears to me that ' . . . the elect lady' of II John vs.1 must have been 'born again.' I find nothing in Scripture that denies that any elect is other than those who are 'born again.' In other words, all who are born of the Spirit are elect and made fit for Heaven.
Maybe some are saying that the ' . . . elect angels' of I Timothy 5:21 are not 'born again' and this is true. They never needed to be born again of the Spirit.
Maybe some are saying that the ' . . . elect angels' of I Timothy 5:21 are not 'born again' and this is true. They never needed to be born again of the Spirit.
FYI, RC Sproul points out that some consider the term "the elect lady" as a metaphor for the church. The church is consider the "bride of Christ." And some scholars point out that this metaphor could have grown from that in speaking of the chosen church or the chosen people. Not that either interpretation would'nt be acceptable, but I just thought it was interesting.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Brother Bill,
We will give Dr. R.C. Sproul at B- for this innovative concept of ' . . . the elect lady' and a D- for the misinformation of his views of five points of Calvinism.
Thanks, however, for the information. It's nice to know there are views like this floating around.
Maybe Mr. Harold Camping can help the good doctor with some more of his spiritualizing and allegorizing of Scripture especially in the Book of Revelation.
We will give Dr. R.C. Sproul at B- for this innovative concept of ' . . . the elect lady' and a D- for the misinformation of his views of five points of Calvinism.
Thanks, however, for the information. It's nice to know there are views like this floating around.
Maybe Mr. Harold Camping can help the good doctor with some more of his spiritualizing and allegorizing of Scripture especially in the Book of Revelation.
1 Peter 1.10 says the prophets spoke by the Spirit of Christ. What Spirit do you suggest this is; I believe these did have that experience even as we, but that the Holy Spirit did not indwell them as we; note the tearing of the veil at the death of Christ signifying the way to the mercy seat.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
baptistriddles
New Member
Doesn't the elect of God mean those that are saved? Afterall, once saved we become His
-Adopted Children
-Ambassadors
-Joint Heir with Christ
Or does it mean those who are saved and have surrendered their all to Christ?
Cheryl<><
-Adopted Children
-Ambassadors
-Joint Heir with Christ
Or does it mean those who are saved and have surrendered their all to Christ?
Cheryl<><
Y
Yelsew
Guest
It seems to me that "whosoever" opens the door to all regardless of "election".
J
Jimmy J.
Guest
Tomm,
That is because you see the "elect" as meaning individuals who God chose for salvation to the neglect of all the rest.
God elected or chose nations for a divine purpose. He chose Israel to be the bearer of His words to the world. They continually rebelled against God who wanted to save them, but they were unwilling. Yet, "His purpose in chosing them would stand." He chose individuals from Israel to carry out His purposes despite their rebellion in order to bring redemption to the World and "to call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one.'"
God, in the NT, chose or elected the Gentiles to receive entrance into the covenant. Both the Old and New covenant required RIGHTEOUSNESS for anyone who wanted to be accepted, but the Old Covenant was a righteousness that came through the works of the Law, while the New Covenant was a righteousness that come through faith. Yet, as we learn from Paul even those under the Old Covenant of the Law were declared righteous by faith (ie Abraham).
Israel did not submit to God's righteousness; therefore He Hardened them all (except the remnant) in their unbelief so as to "elect" or chose another group of people to be grafted in.
So when the scripture says things like "We thank God that He has chosen you..." He is not speaking about an individual election, he is speaking about their national election, saying, "We thank God he has chosen you [Gentiles] to be saved..." Election is not individual thing, its a national thing. So, you may be one of the ones in the elect nation and not be saved, or you may be some from the elect nation and be saved, both are possible.
That is because you see the "elect" as meaning individuals who God chose for salvation to the neglect of all the rest.
God elected or chose nations for a divine purpose. He chose Israel to be the bearer of His words to the world. They continually rebelled against God who wanted to save them, but they were unwilling. Yet, "His purpose in chosing them would stand." He chose individuals from Israel to carry out His purposes despite their rebellion in order to bring redemption to the World and "to call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one.'"
God, in the NT, chose or elected the Gentiles to receive entrance into the covenant. Both the Old and New covenant required RIGHTEOUSNESS for anyone who wanted to be accepted, but the Old Covenant was a righteousness that came through the works of the Law, while the New Covenant was a righteousness that come through faith. Yet, as we learn from Paul even those under the Old Covenant of the Law were declared righteous by faith (ie Abraham).
Israel did not submit to God's righteousness; therefore He Hardened them all (except the remnant) in their unbelief so as to "elect" or chose another group of people to be grafted in.
So when the scripture says things like "We thank God that He has chosen you..." He is not speaking about an individual election, he is speaking about their national election, saying, "We thank God he has chosen you [Gentiles] to be saved..." Election is not individual thing, its a national thing. So, you may be one of the ones in the elect nation and not be saved, or you may be some from the elect nation and be saved, both are possible.
All of this depends upon what you believe about God.
The question is, "does God elect individuals unto the new birth"? If you believe the answer is "yes", then you'll be prone to see phrases like "chosen unto salvation", "predestinated us", and "elect" as regarding the new birth. So it's not really about the meaning of certain scriptures. It's the preconcieved notions one has about God that leads them to certain interpretations. The challenge is deciding whether or not to rethink your preconcieved ideas?
The question is, "does God elect individuals unto the new birth"? If you believe the answer is "yes", then you'll be prone to see phrases like "chosen unto salvation", "predestinated us", and "elect" as regarding the new birth. So it's not really about the meaning of certain scriptures. It's the preconcieved notions one has about God that leads them to certain interpretations. The challenge is deciding whether or not to rethink your preconcieved ideas?
Hi Jimmy J;
Your idea of the elect is new to me I always considered the Jews to be the only elect. They are God's chosen people and Elect in this context means chosen. I believe we can be grafted in by believing in Christ but I can't say I'm elected because I don't believe that scripture says I am. I think that if I'm elected then it's because all who believe are elected.
Romanbear
[ March 13, 2003, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: romanbear ]
Your idea of the elect is new to me I always considered the Jews to be the only elect. They are God's chosen people and Elect in this context means chosen. I believe we can be grafted in by believing in Christ but I can't say I'm elected because I don't believe that scripture says I am. I think that if I'm elected then it's because all who believe are elected.
Romanbear
[ March 13, 2003, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: romanbear ]
Sorry brother, my fault, I meant I Peter 1.10-11.
Where it is said the prophets spoke by the Spirit of Christ which was in them, this same is that Spirit we possess, thus the birth was equally the same.
Hope that corrects my error and clears up your question.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
I don't see why you brethren ran to Ephesians when Romans is a better illustration IMHO!
Romans 8:[28] And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
[30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
[31] What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
[32] He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
[33] Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
[34] Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
[35] Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
[36] As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
[37] Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
[38] For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
[39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 9:[11] (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Before you go saying that election is only a handful as I've heard some imply... A remnant... The elect are a number of heavenly saints in glory... A multitude no man can number... As the stars of the sky and the sands of the sea... That is your election brethren!... The only reason I see for some not believing in election is they are afraid they will be left out... Be at ease God will save ALL his children... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist
Romans 8:[28] And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
[30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
[31] What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
[32] He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
[33] Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
[34] Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
[35] Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
[36] As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
[37] Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
[38] For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
[39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 9:[11] (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Before you go saying that election is only a handful as I've heard some imply... A remnant... The elect are a number of heavenly saints in glory... A multitude no man can number... As the stars of the sky and the sands of the sea... That is your election brethren!... The only reason I see for some not believing in election is they are afraid they will be left out... Be at ease God will save ALL his children... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist
tyndale1946,
The assumption you make is that all children of God will be rewarded to the greatest degree regardless of their works. Or, put another way, that all children of God will have the same quality of relationship with Him regardless of their faithfulness. There are too many scriptures speaking against this. God does not reward according to one's "status". He rewards based upon one's works. No one is guaranteed a basket of special blessings simply because they hold a position. It's based on what they do in that position.
KenH
Well-Known Member
I don't see where you get that idea from Brother Glen's remarks. Also, I think you need to take into account the parable of the workers in the vineyard where all received the same wages regardless of how much work they have done. Also, any differences in heaven are already planned as Jesus told James' and John's mother that to sit at His right and left are reserved for those for whom the places are prepared.