Are the five points Biblical or man made?

[Jarthur001]

Ok, so here is a challenge to all calvinists:

Show scriptural support for each of the 5 points.
If you can't then they must be man made and the synergists must be right.



2. Unconditional election (Election is based entirely on the will and purpose of God and by nothing good or bad in the creature at all.)

ok....here are a few...

For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands. 10 But those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction; he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him


Deuteronomy 7:6-10,

The LORD will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you.

Deuteronomy 7: 15,

It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Deuteronomy 9:5,

But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

Deuteronomy 29:4;

4 Blessed are those you choose and bring near to live in your courts!
We are filled with the good things of your house, of your holy temple.

Psalm 65:4

For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me.

Isaiah 45:4

If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

Mark 13:20

13children born not of natural descent,[a] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

John 1:13

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44,

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.

John 6: 65

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

John 15:16,

Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

John 17:2

The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.

Acts 2:39

Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!" 
"Yes, Lord," he answered.
The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."
"Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name."
But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."
*Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,

Acts 9:1-18,

So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"

Acts 11:17

One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.

Acts 16:14,

When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed.

Acts 18:27

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Romans 8:28-30

Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
*What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, 
***"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, 
******and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he says in Hosea: 
***"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; 
******and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[and, 
***"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 
******'You are not my people,' 
***they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "

Romans 9:10-26

 

[zrs6v4]

indeed

You only would reject this, if you come to the text with an agenda.

that may be true, but I fear we all are guilty of that..

By the way I didnt mean that the context was not important but I was referring specifically to the argument that Paul was writing to believers..

 

[Jarthur001]

a few more under UE...

And Isaiah boldly says, 
***"I was found by those who did not seek me; 
******I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."

Romans 10:20,

So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Romans 11:5;
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, 
******To the saints in Ephesus,[a] the faithful in Christ Jesus:
*2Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
*In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Ephesians 1:1-11

Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes

1 Corinthians 1:1

For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"[a]made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:6

For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

Philippians 1:29

We always thank God for all of you, mentioning you in our prayers. We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
*For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

1 Thessalonians 1:2-4

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:13;

who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

2 Timothy 1:9

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

2 Timothy 2:10

Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
2 Timothy 2: 3-4



Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness

2 Timothy 2: 19

Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

2 Timothy 2: 25


For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 9:15

He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

James 1:18

Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, 
******To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ

Jude 1.

 

[BaptistBob]

I couldnt wait for Jarthur sorry

Just like Romans 8:5-10, I would say the letter is written to believers and unbelievers. He talks as if he is talking to a believer, but I'm sure he knows that these words will be heard by unbelievers in Corinth. Similar to one preaching in a church today. He preaches as if he is preaching to the church, but unbelievers are present and his hope is for them to be saved.

either way my question has always been-

why does it matter the context on these particular verses? Whether to a believer or unbeliever the natural person is spiritually discerned whether a believer not walking in the Spirit or an unbeliever whose never been born of God.

Thanks for taking up the discussion.

The passage is addressed to Christians. The message that Paul wants to deliver is "a message of wisdom among the mature" (2:6), but Paul "could not address [them] as spiritual but as worldly - mere infants in Christ" (3:1). A message for the mature cannot be delivered to infants in Christ.

Therefore, the message that "man without the Spirit does not accept" (2:14) is a deep, spiritual message that Paul can't deliver to the Corinthian believers. Indeed, the Corinthians were no more ready for it than unbelievers.

The verse has nothing to do with what JArthur was saying. These are Christian "brothers" (3:1) that have never heard Paul's message meant for the mature.

(As for Romans 8:5-10, it is addressed to believers. Read all the way to 13 to understand the warning.)

 

[Jarthur001]

Thanks for taking up the discussion.

The passage is addressed to Christians.

The message that Paul wants to deliver is "a message of wisdom among the mature" (2:6),

Part right. The key is wisdom. Now lets look at the two types of wisdom.

Verse 6 says...
although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.

This wisdom of the age is earthly wisdom. Its not from above. The wisdom of the age will change just as the age changes...it will pass away.

What type of wisdom then is Paul talking about?

Verse 7...
7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.


This wisdom comes from God and is hidden. This wisdom is also secret. It is hidden from who?

verse 8...
None of the rulers of this age understood this...

Gods wisdom is hidden from the BELIEVERS RULERS??????

If we were to believe as you wish us to believe...this is saying Gods wisdom is hidden from the pastors of our churches. They are the believers leaders/rulers. Or...from Christ himself, for He is the head of the Church.

But this cannot be the case. This was talking about the Jewish rulers of that day that rejected Christ. Non-believers they were. Why? Because verse 8 tells is...

for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

then have this quote...

What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”

verse 10 says...

These things...

What things?

The wisdom of God which the passage is talking about. This wise things...if you will....are revealed to US.

Who are US? Believers. All believers? Yes...all of them.

How?

The verse tells us...

Through the Spirit.

Verse 12 tells is...WE (the believers) have.

It says...Have...not will....but we HAVE.... received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God,

Ok...but why?

The end of verse 12 tells us...
that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

Now verse 14...

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Who is the natural man??

You say it is the unmature believer.

However..verse 16 tells us who this is...

But we have the mind of Christ.

Who has the mind of Christ...or the wisdom of Christ??

Verse 12 tells us...

Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God,

Those that received the Spirit...they are the ones that have the mind of Christ.

So..who has the mind of the world? The Nature man. The non-believer.

this is as clear as it can be.

 

[BaptistBob]

If we were to believe as you wish us to believe...this is saying Gods wisdom is hidden from the pastors of our churches.

Are they mere infants in Christ? Sometimes, I suppose.

But this cannot be the case. This was talking about the Jewish rulers of that day that rejected Christ. Non-believers they were. Why? Because verse 8 tells is...

Why don't you interact with Paul? He's the one that said that his message is for the mature. He's the one that said that he never delivered the message to these believers.

then have this quote...


verse 10 says...

These things...

What things?

The wisdom of God which the passage is talking about. This wise things...if you will....are revealed to US.

Who are US? Believers. All believers? Yes...all of them.

Hardly. It is a message that the "Spiritual men" (v. 15) speak to the mature. Paul is making the point that having the Spirit does not make them "spiritual men." They are not living up to what they have become in Christ.

You miss the irony, that although the Corinthians have the Spirit, they do not use it. They value the things of this world, so Paul has not shared his "message for the mature" with them. Indeed, "he "could not address [them] as spiritual, but as worldly - mere infants in Christ." They were not ready, yet, for "solid food" (3:1-2).

Through the Spirit.

Verse 12 tells is...WE (the believers) have.

It says...Have...not will....but we HAVE.... received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God,

Ok...but why?

The end of verse 12 tells us...
that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

Yes, and Paul tells them that they have missed out on the message for the mature. "Indeed, you are still not ready" (v. 2).

Who is the natural man??

You say it is the unmature believer.

On the contrary, the immature believer is not the natural man. The natural man and the Corinthians, however, share the love of man's wisdom. They have the same values in that regard. Hence, neither are considered by Paul to be living spiritually, so neither can be expected to receive a message delivered to the mature. Neither group would value the message.

However..verse 16 tells us who this is...

Who has the mind of Christ...or the wisdom of Christ??

Verse 12 tells us...

Those that received the Spirit...they are the ones that have the mind of Christ.

So..who has the mind of the world? The Nature man. The non-believer.

this is as clear as it can be.

See my response, above. You are mistaken as to my position.

 

[BaptistBob]

Hello BBob,

I agree that context is key my friend. or...dude.



This passage is talking about becoming right with God. The verse before may help you understand more about the context..


I hope you don't need any more help with this one.

Can a leopard change his spots?

I don't need any help, but it appears you do. The language in this passage is both figurative and hyperbolic.

The men are not wearing female clothing (the reference is to the female Hebrew pudenda in 13:22, 24; cf Nah 3:5), nor are people expected to deal with the problems of changing their skin like an Ehtiopian or leopard.

The point of the passage is to get people to reflect and respond. In fact John Calvin nailed it when commenting on the passage:

Learned men in our age do not wisely refer to this passage when they seek to prove that there is no free-will in man; for it is not simply the nature of man that is spoken of here, but the habit that is contracted by long practice.

Jeremiah offers real alternatives, although he doesn't have high expectations until Jerusalem is humbled.

Next....

Paul is contrasting the Believer who lives according to the Spirit and the natural man that lives after the flesh. Those that are born of the Spirit have the mind of the Spirit. Those that are in the flesh CAN NOT...are NOT ABLE to follow Gods law. It does not say that are unwilling. It clearly says that they can not.

So when the Bible says...."Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."....The non-Believe cannot come because he is a master to sin.

See my previous post on this issue.

Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:43-44
Read my book on John on this one...

Again, no context?

Jesus explains what they should do to be drawn: "Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me."

In order to be drawn to Christ, they must accept the teaching of the Father, which they have thus far rejected. This is part of the theme of the Book of Signs. In fact, it is part of the purpose of the signs.

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
"But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

John 8:42-47
Please see note above.. see note above..

I've never been of the opinion that a smiley face can explain context or take the place of exegesis.

A major theme in the Book of Signs is that Jesus' teaching is the Father's teaching. Those who will examine it will find salvation (7:17). The audience has already rejected Moses (5:46) and God, so they are not paying heed Christ's words. Therefore, they are asked to examine the signs (the very purpose of the book(!) and humble themselves. Belief will result.

 

[BaptistBob]

Read my book on John on this one...
Please see note above..

Read mine. Here's the beginning.


John's Purpose in Writing His Book

John writes his gospel in order to counter the Jewish opposition to the spread of the gospel of Jesus, the Christ. Throughout the book we find Jewish antagonism. And it is this antagonism which shapes the theological presentation of the book. To accomplish his purpose, John has collected and thematically organized a series of episodes in which Jesus performs "signs." These "signs" form the basis for his argument that Jesus is, indeed, this promised Jewish Messiah, the "true" child of Abraham, the "prophet like Moses" who has led His people in a New Exodus. Thus, in Jesus is the founding moment of God's "true" Israel. John intends his book to be used by the Church as an evangelism tool so that others "might believe," and receive "eternal life." For John, to "believe" is to have eternal life.

The Jewish opposition claimed to be members of God's elect covenant community ("we are Abraham's children"), and thereby the legitimate heirs to God's promise. They had set their hope in Moses, for, as they claimed, "we are disciples of Moses." John goes to lengths to demonstrate that those who believe Jesus (those kata pneuma)—rather than they (those kata sarka)—who are the "true" heirs. Throughout the book John shows Jesus to be the "true" Israelite about whom the sacred Scriptures had spoken. Jesus, in stark contrast to Judaism, is the "true" child of Abraham to whom the promises had been made (cf Gen 17:17; Gal 3:16). These stark contrasts are plainly evident in the book's recurrent emphasis on the arrival of the "true."

We will find that John draws heavily upon the Scriptures to present Jesus as the fulfillment of the promises. The Pentateuch and the Book of Isaiah are especially prominent in John.

Outline of John's Gospel

In order to be assured that we see each part of the Gospel in its proper context we will begin with a general outline of the whole book, followed by a summary overview of the contents. Then each division will be similarly outlined, a general outline followed by a summary overview and closer outline of each section within the division. And then each section will be treated in greater detail. In this way we will remain mindful of the larger literary whole and how each part functions within its respective literary unit. We call this the "hermeneutical circle"—the whole is understood by seeing the parts; the parts are understood by seeing the whole.

General Outline of the Book

The Gospel is divided into two main divisions. These two divisions or "books" are introduced by a Prologue. Concluding the Gospel is an Epilogue.

The Prologue (1:1-18)
Book One: Signs for "His own people" (1:19-12:50)
Book Two: Glory for "all who received Him" (13:1-20:31)
The Epilogue (21:1-25)

Summary Overview of the Gospel's Contents

The Prologue (1:1-18)

The Prologue is derived from an early church tradition (perhaps a Christian hymn) used to introduce the narrative of the life and work of the promised Messiah. The two main thematic divisions of John's Gospel are introduced here (1:11-13). Jesus' mission was to these two contrasted groups of people:

1. "His own people": those under the "old," who did not receive Him—these being Abraham's children on the basis of their physical descent (birth according to the flesh; kata sarka); and ...

2. "All who received Him": those under the "new," who did receive Him—these being Abraham's children not born of natural descent, but born of God (birth according to the Spirit, kata pneuma).

In this summary fashion, John introduces the reader to the book's two portraits depicting the two responses to His message:

- a portrait of those in slavery to the "old" covenant according to the flesh (cf Gal 4:21-5:1)
- a portrait of those set free under the "new" covenant according to the Spirit (cf Gal 4:21-5:1)

Book One: Signs for "His own people" (1:19-12:50)

In the first of the two main thematic divisions of John's Gospel we find a collection of episodes in Jesus' public ministry where by sign and enactment He presents Himself to "His own people" as being the revelation of God's promised new covenant work. This group rejects Him, these whose "disbelieving" hearts were closed to God's work; these who would rely upon their physical descent from Abraham to mark them out as recipients of the promised inheritance. This first division is concluded with an editorial summary of Book One:

But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. (12:37; cf 37-50)

Book Two: Glory for "all who received Him" (13:1-20:31)

In the second of the two main thematic divisions of John's Gospel, Jesus acknowledges that His "hour had come" (13:1-4). From this point on, all of Jesus' words are directed to "all who receive Him." This group receives Him, they "believe" in Him (13:1). These are open to God's new work and receive God's Spirit as the new marker of covenant participation. This second division is concluded with comments on the content and purpose of John's written Gospel:

Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. (20:30-31)

The Epilogue (21:1-25)

An additional account of post-resurrection appearances in Galilee.

Outline of the "Book One: Signs" Division (1:19-12:50)

The "Book One: Signs" division of the Gospel is comprised of four sections, each emphasizing an important aspect of the significance of Jesus' coming. Each of the four sections is presented in the context of Jewish covenantalism so as to present Jesus as the "true" and "heavenly" in contrast to Judaism which was merely an "earthly" shadow or copy.

General Outline of the "Book One: Signs" Division

A. Section One: The "true" identity of Jesus set forth (1:19-2:25)
B. Section Two: The "spiritual" character of this "true" Israel set forth (3:1-4:42)
C. Section Three: Jesus' relation to the Jewish covenantal feasts (5:1-10:42)
D. Section Four: Jesus, the life-giver (11:1-12:36)
Editorial Summary of Book One: Signs (12:37-50)

Broader Outline of the "Book One: Signs" Division

A. Section One: The "true" identity of Jesus set forth (1:19-2:25)

1. Jesus identified as the One who brings the "true" Israel (1:19-34)
2. Jesus identified as the "true" Israelite (1:35-51)
3. Jesus identified as God's "true" Messenger (2:1-11)
4. Jesus identified as the High Priest: the "true" rebuilder of God's "true" Temple (2:13-25)

B. Section Two: The "spiritual" character of this "true" Israel set forth (3:1-4:42)

1. Participation in God's "true" Israel requires birth by God's Spirit (3:1-21)
2. The "true" Israel is given "from heaven" by the Messiah (3:22-36)
3. Participation in the "true" Israel is "true" worship (4:1-42)

C. Section Three: Jesus' relation to the Jewish covenantal feasts (5:1-10:42)

1. Jesus on Sabbath: Jesus asserts His authority over the Sabbath (5:1-47)
2. Jesus at Passover: Jesus' New Exodus bread replaces the manna of the first Exodus (6:1-71)
3. Jesus at Tabernacles: Jesus replaces the ceremonies of the old covenant feast (7:1-8:59)
4. Jesus at Dedication: Jesus replaces the Temple altar (9:1-10:42)

D. Section Four: Jesus, the life-giver (11:1-12:36)

1. Jesus, the one who returns life which was lost to humanity (11:1-44)
2. Jesus, the one who gives His own life (11:45-12:36)

Editorial Summary of Book One: Signs (12:37-50)

1. Jesus' ministry to "His own people" assessed (37-43)
2. Conclusion (44-50)

 

[Jarthur001]

Are they mere infants in Christ? Sometimes, I suppose.



Why don't you interact with Paul? He's the one that said that his message is for the mature. He's the one that said that he never delivered the message to these believers.

hold on....

You think that the rulers are the infants???????

Sorry..I must laugh at your folly.....dude

Paul is clear on this

 

[BaptistBob]

hold on....

You think that the rulers are the infants???????

Dude, no! My very first post (which was a response to someone else) on this topic was very clear as to the identity of who the "infants" were. Since then I've corrected you as well.

Sorry..I must laugh at your folly.....dude

Dude, it's not my folly!

But there is laughing going on.

Paul is clear on this

Agreed. And so was I, dude.

So was IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII. :laugh:

 

[Jarthur001]

Dude, no! My very first post (which was a response to someone else) on this topic was very clear as to the identity of who the "infants" were. Since then I've corrected you as well.



Dude, it's not my folly!

But there is laughing going on.



Agreed. And so was I, dude.

So was IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII. :laugh:

Hello BBob,

You may want to take note of the passage for the 1st time.

As God would have it, you do not need to guess.

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The contrast is in the very same line as your key word "MATURE". The rulers are not the Babies. Sorry this didn't workout for you.

 

[BaptistBob]

Hello BBob,

You may want to take note of the passage for the 1st time.

Taking note ----> BaptistBob

As God would have it, you do not need to guess.

What a relief! :applause:

The contrast is in the very same line as your key word "MATURE". The rulers are not the Babies. Sorry this didn't workout for you.

The rulers are not babies???? Hey, thanks for clearing that up, Jarthur001. I never would have guessed that.


wait.......I've been telling you that since yesterday. D'oh!!

 

[Jarthur001]

Taking note ----> BaptistBob


The rulers are not babies???? Hey, thanks for clearing that up, Jarthur001. I never would have guessed that.


wait.......I've been telling you that since yesterday. D'oh!!

Originally Posted by Jarthur001
If we were to believe as you wish us to believe...this is saying Gods wisdom is hidden from the pastors of our churches.

Are they mere infants in Christ? Sometimes, I suppose.

I rest on the context...while you change your mind with each post.

Look..I like good debate, but you have shown to be driven by your folly. I'll be back tonight, but please read the text next time.

 

[BaptistBob]

I rest on the context...while you change your mind with each post.

Look..I like good debate, but you have shown to be driven by your folly. I'll be back tonight, but please read the text next time.

I haven't changed my position a single time. Solid food is not given to infants. Unless you think "solid food" isn't spiritual (which would be wrong), you will have to agree with me.

 

[Me4Him]

Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

What is the purpose in giving the law if you're not going to abide by the law???

When Esau stands in Judgment he will have a valid excuse for being a sinner,

God can't judge Esau (or Pharaod) according to the law because they were "made sinners" without the law or a violation of the law on their part.

God obligated himself to abide by the law when he gave it and told us it's the "Standard" by which mankind will be "Judged",

Interpreted as predestination creates all sorts of "LEGAL PROBLEMS",

However interpreted as "Foreknowledge" of Esau, and many people, who sell this "Born again"....BIRTHRIGHT" offered by Jesus for the "Morsel of meat" called the "lust of the flesh",

bring everything in context with the rest of the Bible.

*What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, 
***"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, 
******and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

And today you find many who are seeking to enter heaven and won't be able, they have a "form of Godlyness" but deny the "POWER" (Spirit) thereof,

only the worshippers who worship "IN SPIRIT" will enter heaven, so don't think you can pull the wool over God's eyes, it won't work,

Which is precisely the "WARNING" Paul is giving in these verses, there's nothing about anyone being predestine.

Man still must "CALL ON GOD", before God will save, and all who call, will be answered.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Did you ever asked the question of why it was necessary for God to harden Pharaod, if he was on his way to hell anyway???

Ge 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man,

"Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Whether the sowers seed finds good ground, or the clay is "pure",

God will only works with whatever we make available to him.

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

And what if God lied, not willing that any perish, and Jesus dying for sins of the whole world that they "might be" saved???

These one verse/chapter doctrines won't stand close scrutiny in context with the whole Bible.

 

[RAdam]

Concerning Romans 9:10-15 or so, there is no warning that Paul is giving. Paul is rather stating facts. God chose (hmm, interesting concept) to have mercy on Jacob rather than Esau, and to display that this was done not of works but of Him that calleth, God told Rebecca before they were born that the elder would serve the younger. Paul then quotes Malachi, "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated." Man here would think, "that isn't fair." Thus Paul, writing under inspiriation of the Holy Ghost, anticipates this objection and answers it this way: "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbit. For he saith unto Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." Paul, to counter this man-made objection, points straight at the soveriegnty of God. Paul doesn't say, wait a minute, Jacob followed God's rules and Esau didn't, so God had compassion on Jacob. On the contrary, Paul had already established it wasn't according to things Jacob or Esau had or would do. Rather, it was of Him that calleth. Paul then states, "So then, it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." God chooses who He will, and He has every right to do as He pleases.

 

[RAdam]

The law wasn't given to make men sinners, it was given to make men knowledgable of their sin. Paul says, in Romans 5, that there was a time without the law, and that in this time (from Adam to Moses) sin was still in the world. But, Paul states, sin it not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned in this period, and it reigned even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression.

But you say that I didn't become a sinner until I transgressed the law. How could anyone between Adam and Moses have died then? Paul says that death came by sin. Sin isn't imputed when there is no law, for where no law is there is no transgression. These aren't my words, they are Paul's.

The problem many have is they assume that God runs things on an even playing field. God has never worked that way. Some have had more opportunity to hear throughout time. Some have had the law in written form (the Jews) while the rest of the world was in darkness. Some today have great access to the gospel while others are without that opportunity to hear and read. Your theology demands that everyone has the same "chance" to hear and know the things of God when common sense and experience tell us that isn't so. Paul says that, "as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law." Notice they sinned without law. Obviously they were sinners despite the fact they were without the law. How is that?

 

[RAdam]

You have just thrown personal accountability out the window.
Again, "so as" connects Adam and Christ in the passage. If it's one way for Adam, it is the same way with Christ. If I sinned in Adam without actually sinning, then I am also in Christ without faith.

First of all, no I haven't. Paul, immediately after discussing this, writes an entire chapter devoted to laying the groundwork for an argument and carrying through the argument for us living righteously in this present world. This idea that I was made a sinner in Adam removes my personal accountability is totally faulty. In Adam I was made a sinner, but God holds ME personally responsible for MY sins. The question is, why do I sin. Paul says, in Romans 7, "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." That isn't Paul saying that he isn't responsible, that's Paul saying why he breaks the commandments of God. He had sin dwelling in him, what he called the flesh or the old man. He says the inward man wants to please God, but this flesh wants to sin, thus he describes a war in his membes.

I'm glad you are finally understanding the comparison between Adam and Christ and the doctrine of representation. I was made a sinner in Adam (in Paul's words here) by his offence. Likewise, I was made righteous in Christ (again Paul's words) by His righteous obedience. The means of each was something done by each, not something I did. Thus Paul would later state in Romans 9, "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." I didn't get in Christ by having faith, rather I was chosen in Christ, given to Christ, and am preserved in Christ.

 

[zrs6v4]

What is the purpose in giving the law if you're not going to abide by the law???

When Esau stands in Judgment he will have a valid excuse for being a sinner,
God can't judge Esau (or Pharaod) according to the law because they were "made sinners" without the law or a violation of the law on their part.

God obligated himself to abide by the law when he gave it and told us it's the "Standard" by which mankind will be "Judged",

Interpreted as predestination creates all sorts of "LEGAL PROBLEMS",

However interpreted as "Foreknowledge" of Esau, and many people, who sell this "Born again"....BIRTHRIGHT" offered by Jesus for the "Morsel of meat" called the "lust of the flesh",

bring everything in context with the rest of the Bible..

Ill attempt to have a discussion here, although I may not fully understand your points as we think differently. So bear with me please...

Id say the law serves some purposes and two things I'd throw out are yes we are to abide by it, but through free willingness rather than works as it itself reveals our sinfulness and we see that it is glorious rather than tedious.. The Law is possible for one (Jesus/God) but impossible for all as it reveals condemnation and helplessness on our part. Esau and Pharaoh will be judged as all are, by the Law which we all have neglected wholeheartedly at some point and sadly still do as we throw ourselves on the throne of grace. God does the Law because the Law is exactly who He is and that standard by which we are judged is Him which is perfect/Holy. This is why we all fall short pretty quickly. The reason we interperet as predestination is because that is basically what it says in 9:11 and many other places in Scripture as you know. If you interpret it as foreknowledge of Esau then you are violating 9:11, it clearly states this calling was made before he had made any choices and had not been born.

And today you find many who are seeking to enter heaven and won't be able, they have a "form of Godlyness" but deny the "POWER" (Spirit) thereof,

only the worshippers who worship "IN SPIRIT" will enter heaven, so don't think you can pull the wool over God's eyes, it won't work,

Which is precisely the "WARNING" Paul is giving in these verses, there's nothing about anyone being predestine.

Man still must "CALL ON GOD", before God will save, and all who call, will be answered..

I agree up until you say that in this specific chapter Paul is dealing with your statements; I think it is everything about predestination, and is humbling. I think He is clearly dealing with the sovereign will of God and it is not based on human will or exertion vs 16. I agree we have total responsibility and we cant try to live by God's secret work, but I love to remain aware of His sovereignty as I hope to set my heart totally on His Word. I also agree that if man truly calls on God with a repentant heart that God will hear everytime. Again I dont see Paul dealing with this in this chapter, but rather the deeper- Why man calls on God to begin with..

Did you ever asked the question of why it was necessary for God to harden Pharaod, if he was on his way to hell anyway???

Ge 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man,

2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Whether the sowers seed finds good ground, or the clay is "pure",

God will only works with whatever we make available to him..

God hardened Pharaoh for His purpose for him, and yes your right Pharaoh was on his way to hell as everyone else is at some point. Your 2 Timothy verse is awesome, yes anyone who truly sets their hearts on Gods ways will be blessed, but again Paul is speaking of the deeper- why did a blind and wicked person to the core decide to set his/her heart on God? because God poured out His grace on them, and not because of anything they did. I also agree with you on your last statement. God never works or is never working on someone not fully devoted and set on Him. Hyper-Calvinists believe along the lines of the point you are making and it is important to see why they are very wrong. Scripture clearly tells us that both God is 100% the cause of our good decisions/works while we are also 100% involved, the greater being God's grace in the calling to that particular work. This is why we glorify God for all things, because all good begins and ends with Him.

And what if God lied, not willing that any perish, and Jesus dying for sins of the whole world that they "might be" saved???

These one verse/chapter doctrines won't stand close scrutiny in context with the whole Bible.

I kindly disagree, I think we dealed with your first point before if you flip back a few pages in this thread. As far as saying Calvinism being a one verse or one chapter doctrine, that is very untrue. It is drawn from the entirety of Scripture and has hundreds of of in context Scripture referances. It is not just some made up doctrine based on a few verses, but has been carried along though the Baptist church for years up until the modern day. Our denomination highly deemed this doctrine and still holds it today in their beliefs. Calvinism is also known as the "Grace Doctrine".

- http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfmcomparison.asp and scroll down to the way of Salvation

I also wanted to note that just because our denomination holds this doctrine isn’t a reason that we should. As any doctrine it should be searched out and tested in Scripture personally and prayerfully.

 

[BaptistBob]

For those who would like to discuss Romans, I offer my preliminary outline of Romans 9 for future reference.

I. True Nature of God's Israel
A. True desc. = not children of flesh, but children of "promise"
1. "True" are named through Isaac (a child of promise)
2. "Same with Rebecca" (who had a child of promise)
a. God's election was of "Jacob" (another of child of promise)
i. His election of Jacob does not make God unjust
ii. His election of Jacob is based upon His mercy/compassion
Compare Pharaoh (mercy/hardening)
B. Why does God blame "fleshly" Israel if He chose this "true" Israel?
1. How does "man" argue with God's choice?
2. What if God endured in order to make His glory known?
a. As Hosea says ... (Jew/Gentile issue)
b. And as Isaiah cries out ... (Jew/Gentile issue)
C. What can be said? Gentiles did obey; Israel stumbled!
1. As it was written ...
2. Paul's desire that some of them believe.


In this structure, note how the illustrations are embedded within a context-specific issue: THE ISRAEL OF GOD!

Paul's opposition argues that if Paul is right, "God's word has failed!" (9:6) What are they arguing about? Are they arguing that God's word has failed if He picked one individual person to be saved and not another? What kind of sense would that make? Certainly they must have in mind a particular "promise" or "word"? Or are they just pulling that comment out of a hat!?


(Note to dispensationalists: I can adapt the structure to your theology as well. No offence intended )