Are the Four Laws Given to the Church in Antioch in Acts 15 Still in Effect?

[MartyF]

I wanted to go back to the beginning. I don't think I answered your first question clearly. Sorry.

The Apostles and Paul wanted all four rules followed. These are the big ones. I think your reading of 1 Corinthians 8 is missing the forest for all the trees. If you read Paul's explanation as a whole, you can realize that Paul was definitely arguing that you should definitely not eat food sacrificed to idols. Read it as a whole and not as individual verses.

All the letters of the Bible re-emphasized that sexual immorality was not good. Remember, that Acts 15 was dramatically reducing the Laws of the Old Testament and they did not mean at any time to reduce the laws further.

Now, if we break the laws, we can repent and seek forgiveness from Jesus and he will forgive us. But that doesn't mean we should keep sinning.

Sexual immorality were homosexual acts, including anal sex between a man and woman. It included sex between relatives blood and otherwise. Homosexual prostitution is wrong. Adultery is wrong. This list of sexual acts is very specifically listed in the Old Testament. Syncretism has added such things as fornication, but this is not specifically prohibited in the Old Testament. Paul, however, does list numerous reasons not to do this either. I'll let you read it in more detail yourself.

But I don't know of a Bible passage which nullifies the four simple and easy rules given in Acts 15. Blood and strangled animals were not a part of Peter's dream in Acts 10. But if I'm wrong, point it out.

Marty

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I wanted to go back to the beginning. I don't think I answered your first question clearly. Sorry.

The Apostles and Paul wanted all four rules followed. These are the big ones. I think your reading of 1 Corinthians 8 is missing the forest for all the trees. If you read Paul's explanation as a whole, you can realize that Paul was definitely arguing that you should definitely not eat food sacrificed to idols. Read it as a whole and not as individual verses.

All the letters of the Bible re-emphasized that sexual immorality was not good. Remember, that Acts 15 was dramatically reducing the Laws of the Old Testament and they did not mean at any time to reduce the laws further.

Now, if we break the laws, we can repent and seek forgiveness from Jesus and he will forgive us. But that doesn't mean we should keep sinning.

Sexual immorality were homosexual acts, including anal sex between a man and woman. It included sex between relatives blood and otherwise. Homosexual prostitution is wrong. Adultery is wrong. This list of sexual acts is very specifically listed in the Old Testament. Syncretism has added such things as fornication, but this is not specifically prohibited in the Old Testament. Paul, however, does list numerous reasons not to do this either. I'll let you read it in more detail yourself.

But I don't know of a Bible passage which nullifies the four simple and easy rules given in Acts 15. Blood and strangled animals were not a part of Peter's dream in Acts 10. But if I'm wrong, point it out.

Marty

Good points.

I for the life of me cannot understand why sexual immorality had to be specifically commanded to be abstained from, given they are abominations and not about ritual uncleanness. I just don't understand what the apostles and the Spirit were thinking. This is as mysterious as why the apostles commanded cleansing rites or the laying on of hands (Hebrews 6:1-3). Clearly these are rules practiced by early Christians I cannot live up to today.

I do see your point about obedience to these simple rules. It seems you are saying better safe than sorry. To me, that is potentially a challenge to my freedom in Christ. Then again, I may be interpreting that wrong.

What I addressed in the OP was that the reason these simple rules were given, a prevalence of Jews in the empire, that I now know could not even eat with Christians if they did not follow these rules, meant these rules were a boon to missions in the 1st century.

I think what I will have to settle on is that sometimes my freedom is constrained when missions or a weak conscience in a brother, sister, mother, or elder is involved. I take this as a challenge to be more on mission and to be more considerate.

Maybe I should start a thread on if we should or should not eat food sacrificed to idols, a real issue in Asia. That will generate more input to to help me out. I say this because I feel conflicted, and if such then I would abstain form violating the four rules of Acts 16, since it means I have a perfectly clean conscience. Fortunately, in America we don't eat blood hardly ever.

 

[MartyF]

I for the life of me cannot understand why sexual immorality had to be specifically commanded to be abstained from, given they are abominations and not about ritual uncleanness. I just don't understand what the apostles and the Spirit were thinking.

Hello Steve,

Because sex is that important and that powerful. God really designed us to have sex. I won't get into details.

In Matthew 19, the Pharisees asked Jesus if men could leave their wives whenever they wanted to. Jesus said no. Jesus's own disciples were dismayed at this and said who would want to get married if you can't dump your wife for any reason.

Jesus responded that God may help some to do this. They could get their dick and balls cut off or they could cut them off themselves. And if God actually made someone so that he had no sexual desire, he shouldn't get married. And Jesus recently said a tiny piece of faith could move mountains but did not say everyone could overcome this simply through faith.

Notice that when the younger women of the church started to have problems with sexual desires, Paul didn't say they should pray harder or have more faith or to read more scripture. In fact, he says that the sexual desires of the younger women will overpower their Christian faith. Don't believe the syncretism so many pastors are peddling nowadays. Sex is very serious and should not be underestimated. Yet, I see so many pastors cruelly and I mean cruelly without any love or compassion, downgrade sexual desire as some simple childish sin that should be easily overcome like avoiding the temptation to key someone's car.

Paul and Jesus couldn't have been more clear about how powerful sexual desire is.

The only reason provided by the Bible to get married is sex. Now that doesn't mean that is all marriage is about or that God doesn't want children coming out of the marriage to be raised Christian. Nor does it mean that one shouldn't look for other traits in a spouse other than sexual attraction - such as Christian faith. However, there is no other reason to get married than to have sex. You shouldn't get married because you "love" someone, or you have things in common with someone, or as a man you want to have children, or you really like to be around someone. These are the reasons the world gives for getting married. And this is why the world considers sex to be perfectly fine outside of marriage.

I'm not sure if you're providing false bravado or not. But if you really don't need sex and don't have sexual desires, don't get married. Be kind and generous - allow another man to marry the woman. As Paul and Jesus have demonstrated, you can have intense relationships with others - even the opposite sex - without having sex with them or marrying them.

Marty

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Hello Steve,

Because sex is that important and that powerful. God really designed us to have sex. I won't get into details.

In Matthew 19, the Pharisees asked Jesus if men could leave their wives whenever they wanted to. Jesus said no. Jesus's own disciples were dismayed at this and said who would want to get married if you can't dump your wife for any reason.

Jesus responded that God may help some to do this. And if God actually made someone so that he had no sexual desire, he shouldn't get married. And Jesus recently said a tiny piece of faith could move mountains but did not say everyone could overcome this simply through faith.

Notice that when the younger women of the church started to have problems with having sexual desires, Paul didn't say they should pray harder or have more faith or to read more scripture. In fact, he says that the sexual desires of the younger women will overpower their Christian faith. Don't believe the syncretism so many pastors are peddling nowadays. Sex is very serious and should not be underestimated. Yet, I see so many pastors cruelly and I mean cruelly without any love or compassion, downgrade sexual desire as some simple childish sin that should be easily overcome like avoiding the temptation to key someone's car.

Paul and Jesus couldn't have more clear about how powerful sexual desire is.

The only reason provided by the Bible to get married is sex. Now that doesn't mean that is all marriage is about or that God doesn't want children coming out of the marriage to be raised Christian. Nor does it mean that one shouldn't look for other traits in a spouse other than sexual attraction - such as Christian faith. However, there is no other reason to get married than to have sex. You shouldn't get married because you "love" someone, or you have things in common with someone, or as a man you want to have children, or you really like to be around someone. These are the reasons the world gives for getting married. And this is why the world considers sex to be perfectly fine outside of marriage.

I'm not sure if you're providing false bravado or not. But if you really don't need sex and don't have sexual desires, don't get married. Be kind and generous - allow another man to marry the woman. As Paul and Jesus have demonstrated, you can have intense relationships with others - even the opposite sex - without having sex with them or marrying them.

Marty

I'm just being cruel, as I am expected to be. That is the source of false bravado, and you are right on many points.

I do understand that the sex drive overcoming the ability to be celibate is the sole biblical reason for marriage. I don't want to go into details about myself due to BB policy, but I know what you are talking of. I also agree that our false bravado as Christians when it comes to sex is wrong. Christian leaders tend to expect everyone to be a celibate who will have a fantastic wedding night. A cruel stance I have let permeate me, because from what I am told and can surmise, neither expectation is true. Christian wedding nights tend to be anticlimactic and weird, and hardly anyone is a celibate.

To be bluntly honest, we as Christians have let secular culture dictate marriage to us. They get "married" at over 30 because they have had many husbands and wives up until that point, until they choose one to have children with. So we tell our youth to just "wait" until they are established in a career (late 20s, early 30s) to get married. It seems many people leave the faith with their hearts and minds over sexual sin because they cannot wait. People we cannot be sure are really saved to have forfeited their hearts and minds to the devil in the first place.

Maybe you should start a thread really. I mean, how we represent sex and marriage in the Church is an amazingly timely subject that matters.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The only reason provided by the Bible to get married is sex.

This is not correct.
The Bible supplies three reasons for the institution of marriage:
1. For the mutual help and companionship of husband and wife (Genesis 2:18; Proverbs 31:10-12 etc.).
2. For the increase of mankind with legitimate and godly offspring (Genesis 1:28; Malachi 2:15).
3. For the prevention of immorality (Proverbs 5:15-20 etc; 1 Corinthians 7:2, 9).

 

[MartyF]

Hello Martin,

This is not correct.
The Bible supplies three reasons for the institution of marriage:
1. For the mutual help and companionship of husband and wife (Genesis 2:18; Proverbs 31:10-12 etc.).

First passage - God made a dog in order to find us a companion. Did he expect us to marry one? This passage does not provide nor give instruction on why to get married.

Second passage - Once again, this passage doesn’t describe why one should get married. It describes the traits a woman should have.

Why you should get married is not the same as everything that also happens in a marriage.

Let’s look at God’s examples.

Paul commonly had the mutual support and companionship of women. Was he condered to be married? Why not? He had the mutual support and companionship of a woman, Why didn’t he get married if this was the reason to get married?

The same could be said about Jesus.

If one should get married for mutual support and companionship, is it wrong to have mutual support and companionship outside of marriage? If so, do you believe Jesus was a sinner?

If you don’t need marriage to have mutual support and companionship, why did you list that as a reason to get married? Did not both Jesus and Paul say you shouldn’t get married if you don’t have to?

The reason you give is not God’s nor the Bible’s reason. It is the world’s reason. The world does not have the same view of marriage as God does. The world wholeheartly agrees that this is a reason for marriage.

2. For the increase of mankind with legitimate and godly offspring (Genesis 1:28; Malachi 2:15).

First passage. You may not realize or maybe you do and have just compartimentalized it. Sex leads to children.

Second passage - This passage is one of the most common passages taken completely out of context and perverted to mean something it isn’t even remotely saying.

The Isrealites are divorcing their older wifes to marry younger ones and for no good reason. This continues to be a problem in Matthew 19. Divorcing the wife of your youth makes raising Godly children difficult. And this is one of the things God gets frokm the marriage union. God hates divorce. And this is what the passage is about.

If marriage is for children, is using a condom sinful? This is what the Catholics believe. Are you Catholic. Catholics are well known for Syncretism. The Hara Krishnas also believe this.

Is it alright for men and women to split after their children are grown and they can no longer have children? The world thinks so. For the longest time the world listed this as a reason for marriage as well. Its less popular now. But it is still very popular reason in Communist China.

Did Jesus and Paul sin by not trying to have children while they were still fertile?

3. For the prevention of immorality (Proverbs 5:15-20 etc; 1 Corinthians 7:2, 9).

Lol, and how does one expect to prevent immorality. A sexless marriage?

No. The first passage actually discusses the need for sex with your spouse. The demand to keep faithful to the wife of your youth is the same passage reitterated in the previous passage by Malachi.

Second passage - you start with one verse and then skip seven verses. The Bible is meant to be read as a whole - not piecemeal. This passage in Corinthians makes it very clear that marriage is for sex. I’m not sure if you are trying to disagree with me here or are agreeing with me in a different way.

I’m saying “Sex is the reason for marriage”

You are saying “Marriages should occur to avoid sexual immorality by providing a God approved way to have sex.”

Yours might be more PC.

Marty

 

[MartyF]

I'm just being cruel

If you think I was calling you cruel, that was not my intention. I was talking about those I have met IRL.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

If you think I was calling you cruel, that was not my intention. I was talking about those I have met IRL.

The snark was directed at myself for towing the party line, not at you.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

First passage - God made a dog in order to find us a companion. Did he expect us to marry one? This passage does not provide nor give instruction on why to get married.

Genesis 2:18, 24. 'And The LORD God said, "It is not good that man should be alone. I will make him a helper comparable to him." Therefore a man shall leave his mother and be joined to his wife.' If a dog is a helper comparable to you, what can I say?

Second passage - Once again, this passage doesn’t describe why one should get married. It describes the traits a woman should have.

Why you should get married is not the same as everything that also happens in a marriage.

Proverbs 31:10-12. 'Who can find a virtuous wife? For her worth is far above rubies. The heart of her husband safely trusts her; so he will have no lack of gain. She does him good, not evil all the days of her life.' If the only purpose for marriage is sex, the required characteristics would seem to be far different.

First passage. You may not realize or maybe you do and have just compartimentalized [sic] it.

Genesis 1:28. 'Then God blessed them and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea........."' The multiplying is part of the dominion mandate.

Sex leads to children.

So that's what causes them! Gosh! Thanks for telling me. I won't be doing that anymore.

Second passage - This passage is one of the most common passages taken completely out of context and perverted to mean something it isn’t even remotely saying.

The Isrealites are divorcing their older wifes to marry younger ones and for no good reason. This continues to be a problem in Matthew 19. Divorcing the wife of your youth makes raising Godly children difficult. And this is one of the things God gets frokm the marriage union. God hates divorce. And this is what the passage is about.

Malachi 2:14-15. '.....The LORD has been witness between you and the wife of your youth, with whom you have dealt treacherously; yet she is your companion [c.f. Gen. 2:18 above] and your wife by covenant. But did He not make them one, having a remnant of the Spirit? And why one? He seeks godly offspring.' To be sure the passage is about divorce, but it also tells us one of the reasons for marriage, and the reason why marriage should be for life.

If marriage is for children, is using a condom sinful? This is what the Catholics believe. Are you Catholic. Catholics are well known for Syncretism. The Hara Krishnas also believe this.

Oh boy! And you want to join a debating forum? I shall watch your progress, or lack of it, with interest.
I stated that there are three reasons given in the Bible for marriage, and sex is the third. Just read the texts I gave. I can't be bothered to type any more out in full. Proverbs 5:15-20; 1 Corinthians 7:2, 9. You might also look at verses 3-5 as well.

 

[Yeshua1]

Genesis 2:18, 24. 'And The LORD God said, "It is not good that man should be alone. I will make him a helper comparable to him." Therefore a man shall leave his mother and be joined to his wife.' If a dog is a helper comparable to you, what can I say?

Proverbs 31:10-12. 'Who can find a virtuous wife? For her worth is far above rubies. The heart of her husband safely trusts her; so he will have no lack of gain. She does him good, not evil all the days of her life.' If the only purpose for marriage is sex, the required characteristics would seem to be far different.

Genesis 1:28. 'Then God blessed them and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea........."' The multiplying is part of the dominion mandate.

So that's what causes them! Gosh! Thanks for telling me. I won't be doing that anymore.

Malachi 2:14-15. '.....The LORD has been witness between you and the wife of your youth, with whom you have dealt treacherously; yet she is your companion [c.f. Gen. 2:18 above] and your wife by covenant. But did He not make them one, having a remnant of the Spirit? And why one? He seeks godly offspring.' To be sure the passage is about divorce, but it also tells us one of the reasons for marriage, and the reason why marriage should be for life.

Oh boy! And you want to join a debating forum? I shall watch your progress, or lack of it, with interest.
I stated that there are three reasons given in the Bible for marriage, and sex is the third. Just read the texts I gave. I can't be bothered to type any more out in full. Proverbs 5:15-20; 1 Corinthians 7:2, 9. You might also look at verses 3-5 as well.

Sex is an important aspect of the relationship between a Husband and wife, but the Lord designed for the marrieds to have far more more in common than sex, as having an active sex element does not automatically mean great marriage!

 

[MartyF]

Sex is an important aspect of the relationship between a Husband and wife, but the Lord designed for the marrieds to have far more more in common than sex, as having an active sex element does not automatically mean great marriage!

I agree with this entirely. Both the Old and New Testaments repeatedly say both through narrative and expository that one should only marry other believers. Marrying an ungodly man or woman almost always ends in disaster. (Esther being one of the few exceptions.)

Also, Christian spouses would automatically be expected to do a number of things unrelated to sex. Among these being companionship and children raised to love God. I like to think of Marriage as a Christian institution.

 

[gb93433]

Are the four laws given to the church in Antioch in Acts 15 still in effect?

My answer is a cautious "no," because Acts 15:21 seems to give the reason for these laws to be observed.

A reason that seems no longer applicable in our day when knowledge of the Law of Moses is so rare, and Judaism opposes Christians over theological reasons more than fidelity to the Law. Also, Paul later states that it is for the weak in faith that one is not to eat food sacrificed to idols (1 Corinthians 8).

I think there are two things to consider. The word coming from a Hebrew background and word translated as law is much more than just laws. Torah has a much wider range of meaning than the translation we often see. Secondly Jesus said he did not come to do away with the "law" but to fulfill it. The religious leaders had burdened the people by distorting what scripture taught and took away the spirit of the law. They had ignored and/or forgotten the spirit of the Torah and actually added to the written word in the form of oral tradition which later was recorded in the Mishnah (300 BC - 200AD) the Tosefta and Talmud. The religious leaders did what many leaders do today in that they start well and eventually try to maintain the organization. Then they change the organization and teaching to draw people away from God and to themselves. There is no doubt in my mind Jesus knew the Torah and the oral traditions at that time.

He would have been aware of these thoughts at the time which we as Christians tend to practice today.

From the “Sayings of the Fathers” (Pirkei Avot) in the Mishnah

1.13 He would say, "Spread a name, lose his name. And one who does not increase knowledge ceases. And one who does not study is liable to die. And one who makes use of the crown of learning passes away."

1.15 Shammai says, "Make your Torah fixed, say little and do much, and receive every person with a pleasant countenance."

Rabban Gamliel says, "Make for yourself a mentor, remove yourself from doubt and do not frequently tithe by estimation."