Are the Greek/Russian orthodox Valid Christian Churches?

Agreed. We should not recognize them as such, however we can't stop the World Alamanac (for example) from numbering them us among us and us among them.

which is confusion.

2 Corinthians 6
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.​

HankD​

 

Good! If one uses a picture of Christ as a remeberance of our Lord and through that process is brought closer to God, then it cannot be idolatry by it's very nature.

God's word dosen't support kooky interpretations like yours. If it did, then God Himself violated His own law when He commanded the Arc to have graven images. I notice you conveniently skipped over that little tid-bit. Care to address it now?

Yeeeee Haw!

Yet, they themselves believed in oral tradition and passed teachings on in that very way, often prefering that to the written medium.

2 Tim 2:2
And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

1 Cor 11:2
...praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings as I passed them on to you.

1 Thess 2:13
13And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

2 John 1:12
12 I have much to write to you, but I do not want to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete.

2 Thess 2:15
15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Duhhh... The Early Church Fathers didn't exist until later. However it is thought that St. Polycarp was a deciple of St. John the Apostle. Do do you think he got it wrong?

So YOU say doc.

WM

 

How do you differentiate between "us" and "them"?

WM

 

An idol is anything that comes between you and Jesus. A political party, for example.

 

Scripture disagrees with you regarding your apparent separation of obedience from full saving faith in Christ:

"He became the author of eternal life to all who obey Him." Hebrews 5:9

"(God)who 'will render to each one according to his deeds': eternal life to those who by patient continunce in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality" Romans 2:6-7

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." John 5:28-29

God's Word in God's Church--bashing antinomianism since the 1st century AD. :thumbs:

 

James 1

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.​

HankD​

 

What one is doing is staring at a picture of a man with a beard and thinking to oneself, "This is my god!" I think that is the very essence of idolatry. The only thing I can think of worse than that is queueing up for an hour to stare at a picture of a woman and kissing it thinking, "This is my god's mother." That's what the religious folk in St. Petersburg were doing.

It's more than sad, it's tragic.

Steve

 

Regarding the "them"...
Do they lack wisdom?
Do they not ask for wisdom in faith?
Do they wavereth?
Are they double minded?

If the answer is yes to any of the above, then how do you know?

Regarding the "us"...
Do those you associate with lack wisdom?
Do those you associate with not ask for wisdom in faith?
Do those you associate with wavereth?
Are those you associate with double minded?

If the answer is no to any of the above, then how do you know?

This all sounds pretty subjective to me.

WM

 

What if that picture is simply a reminder to them that Jesus is Lord? Anyone with a brain is going to know that the picture on the wall isn't God. Come on...

I posit that you don't really know what they were thinking.

Not to them.

WM

 

DT:
I think you will find many here that believe as saved Christians, they will be excluded from the judgement clearly indicated in Romans 2:6-8.

Just FYI...
WM

 

Please, no man or woman of any true faith does that......The HS has instructed them far better than that. Now if they are kissing it & worshiping it then yes they prove that they have not been regenerated. But I dont view any of this as tragic, simply another way to develop a conversation about the REAL LORD with someone desperately in need. Oh & ah, we are all sinners irrespective of our spiritual status.

 

After reading through the posts in this thread I believe I see a fair amount of misunderstanding about icons.

I suggest folk read;

Behold the Beauty of the Lord: Praying with Icons by Henri J. M. Nouwen.

Notice the title is praying with icons, not praying to icons.

I was introduced to this book by a Baptist missionary in Europe. Though I still do not consider myself well read on this subject I can see there is much misunderstanding on the BB. I had many of the same misunderstandings before reading the book.

No, I won't answer questions asking for a 50 word synoposis of the book. I cannot do it justice with the understanding I currently have.

 

You missed the point altogether! It does not matter WHO (Jew or gentile) is committing the sin of idolatlry because the WHO does not change it from idolatry to something else! (as you apparently think it does).

I see you did not understand what I said about intent and context either. Better read it again and see if something sinks in. I will spell it out for you so you can understand what I said.


The Tabernacle/temple and its furniture are by divine design are types for instruction not objects of worship. However, if you worship them then you change God's intent from a type begin to worship it, then your abuse turns it into an idol. This is precisely why they destroyed the brazen serpent of Moses because they were changing God's intent for it as a type and turning it into an object of veneration. When you turn a TYPE into an object of veneration through acts of worship then you violate the second commandment. I know this may be above your head, but try to think through what I am saying.

You simply do not get the point! There were ORAL TRADITIONS OF THE ELDERS passed down from generation to generation during the time of Christ and the apostles. NOT ONCE did Christ or the apostles ever quote ORAL TRADITIONS OF THE FATHERS (elders) to interpret scripture or to establish doctrine or practice. NOT ONCE! Instead they always without exception either said "Thus it is WRITTEN" (or a similar statement ) OR spoke under inspiration. Why? Because the written word ALWAYS replaces oral traditions as oral traditions are never designed for the long run as they always break down because they are passed down through uninspired fallible human beings. That is precisely why Peter says the written word is "MORE SURE" than apostolic oral traditions EVEN WHEN PETER WAS NOT YET DEAD! Hence, the written epistle of Peter replaced his oral tradition as "MORE SURE."

However, they knew that oral traditions were only good over a short period of time because they eventually break down and get garbled. Hence, that is precisely why Peter said the written word is "MORE SURE" than APOSOTOLIC ORAL TRADITION.

In contrast, the Church of Rome interprets the scriptures and established their doctrine and practice primarily upon the basis of UNINSPIRED FLAKEY ORAL TRADITIONS just as the scribes and Pharisees did. Rome repeats the same error as the scribes and pharisees while Christ and the Apostles NEVER EVER resorted to the oral traditions of the fathers in their day but repudiated them because like all oral traditions they break down and become distorted with time.

You are just not too bright today are you? The traditions of the JEWISH elders did exist when Jesus and the apostles lived and yet they NEVER quoted oral tradition at ANY TIME as their authority for doctrine and practice but ALWAYS directly quoted scripture or as the prophets spoke under inspiration. Why? Because oral traditions break down over time and cannot be trusted.


Rome does not practice what Christ and the apostles practiced in establishing doctrine and practice but rather they are followers of the Pharisees who established doctrine and practice upon ORAL TRADITIONS from the UNINSPIRED fathers.

Unlike the so-called church fathers, the apostles spoke under inspiration and claimed inspiration when they spoke just as the Old Testament prophets before them. However, Catholics quote UNINSPIRED men as their source of interpretating the scriptures.

You talk about "kookey"? It does not take too much common sense to see that oral traditions are at best temporary but in the long term flakey. That is precisely why Peter said the written word of God is "MORE SURE" than apostolic oral traditions.

 

It does not matter if they do or don't because an Idol is an image of a god whether it is the manifestation of a false god or the true God and what you do or don't do does not change what IT IS! And idol IS the image of someone's manifest perception of either a false god or the true God which IS forbidden by Scripture. It does not matter whether the visible IMAGE is made manifest in stone, wood, clay, on canvas it is still a forbidden IMAGE of God.

If you have CARVED image of God, whether you bow or do not bow to it does not change WHAT IT IS! You have sinned by creating it regardless of how you may or may not use it. When you point to that picture and say that is Jesus you have not only LIED but you have errected an IMAGE of God on your wall.

You can mock and laugh all you like but your mocking and laughing does not change WHAT IT IS - It is an IMAGE of God in the person of Jesus Christ.

 

Not the way you do that is for sure. What do you think this whole debate has been about??????? dahhhhhhh!

 

It most certainly does not! Saving faith IN Christ has to do with Christ alone and what He did for you and not about you or what you do for God. That is the Biblical doctrine of justification and it is not synonymous with regeneration. Regeneration changes you into a willing servant but it is the power of the indwelling Spirit that makes your obedience possible.

There is no such thing as a justified but unregenerate person any more than there is such a thing as a regenerate but unjustified person.

Hebrews 5:9 place the authorship of eternal life and Hebrews 12;2 places the authorship of faith with Christ not you. Hebrews 5:9 simply states a CONSEQUENTIAL truth and that is those possessing eternal life obey the Lord but does not teach that obedience begets eternal life.

"He became the author of eternal life to all who obey Him." Hebrews 5:9


You have jerked Romans 2:6-7 completely out of context. There are no saved, justified persons even regarded in this context. He is directing this to those self-righteous persons who believe they can be justified by keeping the law. Paul simply spells out the terms and consequences for approaching God on the basis of law keeping. Eternal life by law keeping requires "patient continuance" or as Paul says in Galatians 3:10 "continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."


"(God)who 'will render to each one according to his deeds': eternal life to those who by patient continunce in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality" Romans 2:6-7

John 5:24 does not help you in the least. Concerning "good" Jesus said "there is NONE GOOD but one and that is God" referring to the lost unregnerate man. So in God's sight no lost person can do good. Hence, the only ones capable of doing good are those previously defined in context in verse 24 and they shall not come into condemnation.

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." John 5:28-29

However, you and your theology is that of the Rich Young Ruler. You do not understand what the law means by "good" and you do not understand Jesus' words "There is NONE GOOD but one and that is God."

 

The word "icon" is an "image" and if that "image" is supposed to represent God then it is an idol and the one who carved, shaped or painted it is guilty of idolatry as much as those who continue to possess it, pray with it or pray to it.

 

I don't have time to take up that debate right now, and I don't really want to. However, the Bible supports a lot more of what you call "Romanism" than you think (or perhaps than you would like to think). I believe it was a couple of years ago that I made the assertion here that it is clear that Luke and John regarded Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. You smugly challenged me to show you where and I gave you quite a few passages. I assume from your failure to respond or challenge me further that you must have recognized the truth of what I was saying.

What I said that brought on this rant was that scripture did not teach you that the Bible contains the entire deposit of faith that was once delivered to the saints. The verses you cited make no such claim. Isaiah 8:20 must be read in light of Isaiah 8:19 which denounces the consulting of mediums and recommends consulting God instead. Then 8:20 says, “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.”

It is reasonably clear that “the law” is the Torah. Therefore, since we have a conjunction, “the testimony” must be something else. The testimony to which Isaiah refers is oral and written tradition. Some of it got in the Bible, e.g., the writings of Isaiah himself. Other “testimonies” were handed down by extra-biblical writings or by oral tradition, e.g., the chair of Moses referenced in Matthew 23:32, and the names of the priests of Pharaoh referenced in 2 Timothy 3:8.

So this verse in no way points to the exclusivity of scripture, but rather points to the fact that the word of God is contained in both scripture and tradition.

There is likewise no claim of biblical exclusivity in 2 Timothy 3:15-16. It makes a pretty good case for the truth of scripture and it is one reason I believe in the truth of scripture, although not the main reason. In fact when Paul wrote this letter to Timothy, he probably had the O.T. in mind. Since then we have come to apply it to N.T. writings and properly so. Nevertheless, it makes no claim to scripture being the only source of Christian teaching. Advocates of sola scriptura make this claim but only because they have nothing else. Sola scriptura is based on tradition—flawed tradition, but nonetheless tradition.

I do agree with the second part of your claim—that the Bible was finished during the lifetime of the apostles—even though your scriptural citations don’t say so. Revelation 22:18-19 appears to support this but in actuality all it does is forbid any tampering with the book of Revelation. But just because the Bible was finished in no way means it is the exclusive source of all knowledge and teachings pertaining to Christianity. See John 21:25; 2 Thessalonians 2:15. And did you ever consider that Jesus never told His apostles to write anything down? No, He told them to go and preach, teach and baptize.

 

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Verse 3 prohibits both pantheism and polytheism. It also prohibits anything that would replace or take the place of God in the eyes of men. This could be anything imaginable whether visible or invisible. This verse demands that God stands preeminent in the minds of men.

Verse 4 prohibits the human producton or making any kind of "image" or any kind of "likeness" of anything that would take the place of God in the eyes of men. Hence, an Idol is an "image" that can be made by man. It is something that could be chisled, carved, molded, painted, crafted, etc.

Verse 5 defines what kind of actions toward images that would indicate it is usurping the place of God in the eyes of men. Bowing down before images and/or serving them. The Hebrew term for "serving" refers to RELIGIOUS SERVICE such as giving adoration, prayer, attributing to it the names or characteristics of the True God or any other form of worship.


Now, how does these prohibitions apply to things God commanded them to make, such as, the cheribums, tabernacle/temple and its furniture?

First, God cammanded them to be made and gave the specific reason for making them. God never commanded Rome to make its statutes and paintings. Second, God never commanded any kind of worship toward such things. God designed them to be instructive types not visible replacements of God. They were not to bow down to them, pray or render any kind of worship toward them.

Whenever, man crossed the line from perceiving them merely as instructive types unto objects of worship, then they became idols as well. This is precisely why the brazen serpent was destroyed in order to keep it from changing from a type to instruct unto a idol to be venerated.

What about bowing down before kings and superiors? These are not things made by anyone's hands but refer to authorized positions ordained by God to represent his authority - Rom. 13. They simply bow in recognition of the authority God established. However, whenever a dignitary made it clear that he was the object of worship, God's people refuse to bow down before them and whenever created angels perceived they had become objects of worship they immediately forbade both the actions and attitudes that conveyed worship toward them.

What about Rome's statues and pictures of saints, Mary and Christ? First,God never commanded them to be made. Second, These are all visible images made by the hands of men in direct disobedience to verse 4 above. As man made images, they are taking the place of God in the eyes of men when such actions as bowing down and rendering any religious service toward them takes place, which is in direct disobedience to verse 5 above.

What about Mariolotry? It is idolatry plain an simple. She was never born sinless but claimed the need of a redeemer. Jesus who was born sinless NEVER claimed the need of a redeemer. She did not conceive deity, as the Son was given, whereas the child was born by a virgin (Isa. 8:6). She gave birth to the child that was born not the Son which was given. The Son was not born, only the child was born. She is not the Mother of God. She is no a co-redemptrix or a co-mediator as there is no other redeemer but Christ and no other mediator between God and man than Chrsit. She had other children after the birth of Christ and she was not taken up to heaven at her death. All of this is pagan supersitition that comes directly from Babylon's Queen of heaven as the Madonna.

 

I do not consider the Orthodox, or the Catholic Church, or the ultra-liberal protestant churchs to be Christian in any way shape or form.

But I do acknowlege that there can be *some* christians among the congregation