Are the Jews still God's people?

[Martin Luther]

He did not become a Jew; he was saved and became a Christian.

20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

 

[DHK]

20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

He did not revert back to Judaism. He adopted to the Judaic culture.

Read on:
1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
--He adapted to the situation, as the situation warranted. His purpose was to win souls, not to offend. When he was among Gentiles he would not push his Jewish background upon them. "He was all things to all men."

 

[Martin Luther]

He did not become a Jew; he was saved and became a Christian.

Secondly, many Israelites followed Christ, how could jews be Israelites if Paul says this about jews?


1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

 

[OldRegular]

Show me where the original covenant is voided.

Depends on which covenant you are talking about.

The Covenant with Abraham:

Galatians 3:6-9; 16; 25-29
6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Mosaic Covenant:

Hebrews 8:7-13
7. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11. And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[DHK]

Secondly, many Israelites followed Christ, how could jews be Israelites if Paul says this about jews?


1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

God's wrath did come upon the Jews because of their rejection of Christ as Messiah. They also rejected Paul. Paul therefore wiped the dust off his feet and said: "from henceforth I turn to the Gentiles." Paul is known as "the Apostle to the Gentiles."

 

[Martin Luther]

God's wrath did come upon the Jews because of their rejection of Christ as Messiah. They also rejected Paul. Paul therefore wiped the dust off his feet and said: "from henceforth I turn to the Gentiles." Paul is known as "the Apostle to the Gentiles."

The wrath of God is coming upon the jews because when they rejected Messiah they turned from truth as a religion. Certainly the wrath is not coming upon Israelites because many of them followed Christ and are added to the church.


For hundreds of years men of different nationalities were becoming jews,



Esther 8:17
17And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

A Persian cannot "become" an Israelite, but he can become a jew.

 

[DHK]

Esther 8:17
17And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

A Persian cannot "become" an Israelite, but he can become a jew.

Not so. Rahab the harlot, a Gentile, and Ruth the Moabitess, were both Gentiles outside of Israel. Gentiles are Gentiles. It doesn't matter whether they were from Moab or Persia. These two women ended up right in the ancestry of Christ. The Jews made proselytes quite frequently.

 

[Martin Luther]

Not so. Rahab the harlot, a Gentile, and Ruth the Moabitess, were both Gentiles outside of Israel. Gentiles are Gentiles. It doesn't matter whether they were from Moab or Persia. These two women ended up right in the ancestry of Christ. The Jews made proselytes quite frequently.

Ruth lived in Moab, she could have been an Israelite. The Israelites ruled Moab and so they inhabited Moab. It was common to live in conquered territory. Christ was 100% pure Israelite. And where does it say Rahab was related to Christ? On this one point I am unsure. Looking at the verse in Matthew, how do we know this was the same Rahab?

 

[DHK]

Ruth lived in Moab, she could have been an Israelite. The Israelites ruled Moab and so they inhabited Moab. It was common to live in conquered territory. Christ was 100% pure Israelite. And where does it say Rahab was related to Christ? On this one point I am unsure. Looking at the verse in Matthew, how do we know this was the same Rahab?

Matthew 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;

Ruth 4:21 And Salmon begat Boaz, and Boaz begat Obed,

Boaz was the son of Rahab the Harlot. Boaz's father was Salmon, as attested in both Ruth and Matthew.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

NT teaches Unity of the Body

Dispensationalism teaches many subgroups and divisions of believers with much segregation and disunity.

There is a subgroup called: OT Saints
There is a subgroup called: Church Age Saints
There is a subgroup called: Trib-Jews
There is a subgroup called: Trib-Saints
There is a subgroup called: 144-Super Jewish Evangelists

Each of these different groups within Dispensationalism must come to salvation in different ways,. Some of animal sacrifices, some of keep the Laws, some by Grace of Christ, some by doing works, some by overcoming and not dying, some second chance of salvation post-Church Age in Tribulation, some will do restoration animal sacrifices again in millennial, etc... Dispensational provides many classes and subclasses of believers, some inheriting Heaven, some inheriting the Earth, some being the Bride, some being the Guest, some being who knows what.

But the Scriptures teach...

Romans 12:5 "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another"

1 Corinthians 10:17 "For we being many are one bread, and one body for we are all partakers of that one bread."

1 Corinthians 12:12 "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body so also is Christ."

1 Corinthians 12:20-25 "But now are they many members yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more thoese members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary. And thoese members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant: honour; and our uncomely parts have more than abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempted the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked. That there should be no schism as the body, but that the members should have the samecare one for another."

Ephesians 2:16 "And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."

Ephesians 4:4-6 "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Colossians 3:15 "And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body, and be ye thankful."

Colossians 1:24 "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church."

Ephesians 2:14-15 "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken the middle wall of partition betweent us; Having abolished in his flesh, the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinanaces; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

Ephesians 3L21 "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout ALL AGES, world without end. Amen."

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Marcia]

Posted by DeafPostTrib
Dispensationalism teaches many subgroups and divisions of believers with much segregation and disunity.

There is a subgroup called: OT Saints
There is a subgroup called: Church Age Saints
There is a subgroup called: Trib-Jews
There is a subgroup called: Trib-Saints
There is a subgroup called: 144-Super Jewish Evangelists

Each of these different groups within Dispensationalism must come to salvation in different ways,. Some of animal sacrifices, some of keep the Laws, some by Grace of Christ, some by doing works, some by overcoming and not dying, some second chance of salvation post-Church Age in Tribulation, some will do restoration animal sacrifices again in millennial, etc..

This is entirely untrue! No dispens. that I know teaches that anyone is saved except by grace through faith!!! Same in the OT, NT, for Jews, etc.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Dispensationalists teaches when the raptures, the "Church age" saints will be rapture, the other rest of the world will miss rapture-are not saved, will have another second chance to be saved during Tribulation period prior "Second Coming". This is unbiblical.

In Matt. 25:1-12 teaching us when once the Lord comes, the door shut closed, show that the opporunity of salavtion will be done. Time for to judgment the world. There is no another second chance for person to repent when once after Christ appears with his angels. All of them will be cast away into the lake of fire at once - 2 Thess. 1:7-10.

God only have one people throughout all ages from beginning to end- these who ahve faith in Christ, are the Church. Church means God's people. That's simple and plain.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Marcia]

Dispensationalists teaches when the raptures, the "Church age" saints will be rapture, the other rest of the world will miss rapture-are not saved, will have another second chance to be saved during Tribulation period prior "Second Coming". This is unbiblical.

In Matt. 25:1-12 teaching us when once the Lord comes, the door shut closed, show that the opporunity of salavtion will be done. Time for to judgment the world. There is no another second chance for person to repent when once after Christ appears with his angels. All of them will be cast away into the lake of fire at once - 2 Thess. 1:7-10.

God only have one people throughout all ages from beginning to end- these who ahve faith in Christ, are the Church. Church means God's people. That's simple and plain.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

No one gets a second chance. Even some people who saw Jesus in person when he was on earth did not believe in him. This will be the same after the rapture - the rapture doesn't give anyone another chance. It won't make people believe. In fact, it may be used by those left to get people to think Chrisitanity is wrong. It's not a 2nd chance if they are still alive. A 2nd chance would be if someone dies, then they get a chance to believe. That's a 2nd chance.

 

[Marcia]

Deafposttrib, what you said is an untruth. I don't know what the so-called hyper-dispensationalists believe, but the dispens. I know do not believe anyone gets a 2nd chance or that anyone is saved except by grace through faith.

Your post above said that disp. believe all these groups are saved different ways. This is not true.

 

[DHK]

Dispensationalists teaches when the raptures, the "Church age" saints will be rapture, the other rest of the world will miss rapture-are not saved, will have another second chance to be saved during Tribulation period prior "Second Coming". This is unbiblical.

How little you know.
Not every dispensationalist believes this. Don't paint everyone with the same brush.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

This topic might going to be closed anytime, because it is now page 30, it is limited. So, I would like to say something.

Bible teaches us, there is only one gospel, one hope, one Lord, one nation, one people. Nowhere in Bible say that Jews will finally possess their own Jewish nation for their Messiah to usher it in the future. Christ told blind Jews that the nation is removed away from them and give it to another nation-Gentiles. That means blind Jews were cut off, God grafted Gentiles into tree join with believing Jews, so, all Israel are saved - completed by the result of Calvary.

Eph. 2:12-13 tells us, that we(Gentiles) were aliens, strangers, separated from the commonwealth of Israel, without Christ during in the Old Testament time. But NOW Gentiles are join with Israel, and Gentiles are commonwealth of Israel. That means, you and I are member of Israel.

One more thing to tell you something on dispensationalism.

It teaches that when the rapture come and past. People who are not saved, will miss rapture, and left behind non earth. Who's will tell them the gospel, while the Church is gone? So, they saying that 144 super Jewish evangelists will replaced Church, to preach the gospel over the world to, many people will be saved during Tribulation period. 144 super Jewish evangelists replaced Church?? That is not actual what the Bible saying.

The first part of Revelation 7:1-8 show the picture that Jews were saved first before Gentiles according in Romans 1:16, and Acts 1:8. Multitudes Jews were saved first during Early Church time, then the gospel spreading over Gentiles according Rev. 7:9-17.

Revelation chapter 7 give the picture of the harvest of the world -rapture follow after the sixth seal occurs pictured as second coming.

Church doesn't replace Israel. Israel doesn't replace Church in Tribulation. Church is same as Israel. Church means God's people. Well as Israel means God's people.

I ask you question, is there divide groups up in the heaven? Will you see "Israel" as literal physical Jewish nation people up there in heaven? Of course not. There is only one family in the heaven with the Lord. Because we have the same Lord in heaven. Jesus is Israel. We have Christ, so, we are on the same tree- salvation. Also, we have a big one city - New Jerusalem. in Revelation chapter 21 tells us, both Gentiles and Jews are living together in the same city.

When Christ shall come with his angels. He will bring New Jerusalem down on the new earth, and we shall dwell in that one city together forever and ever. Only saved people("sheep"of Matt. 25:32) will live in New Jerusalem- both Jews and Gentiles. God's sheep(Matt. 25:32) is only ONE family - saved people. No more divided again among God's people on new earth follow at second advent forever and ever. Amen.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DHK]

This topic might going to be closed anytime, because it is now page 30, it is limited. So, I would like to say something.

Bible teaches us, there is only one gospel, one hope, one Lord, one nation, one people. Nowhere in Bible say that Jews will finally possess their own Jewish nation for their Messiah to usher it in the future. Christ told blind Jews that the nation is removed away from them and give it to another nation-Gentiles. That means blind Jews were cut off, God grafted Gentiles into tree join with believing Jews, so, all Israel are saved - completed by the result of Calvary.

The Bible teaches: "So then all Israel shall be saved." When will that be?
At the end of the Tribulation when Christ comes just before the Millennial Kingdom.
It says: "They shall look upon Him, whom they have pierced."
"Every eye shall see him."
At that time Christ will defeat the enemies of Israel and they, as a nation will be saved. This is taught in Romans, Revelation, Joel, Isaiah, Zechariah, and many other books of the Bible. It can hardly be denied.

Eph. 2:12-13 tells us, that we(Gentiles) were aliens, strangers, separated from the commonwealth of Israel, without Christ during in the Old Testament time. But NOW Gentiles are join with Israel, and Gentiles are commonwealth of Israel. That means, you and I are member of Israel.

No, it teaches we are all one in Christ: Gentile, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. When one gets saved they leave their religion behind (as Paul did), and embrace Christianity. That is what it means to be one in Christ, and that is what Paul is speaking about in Ephesians.

One more thing to tell you something on dispensationalism.

It teaches that when the rapture come and past. People who are not saved, will miss rapture, and left behind non earth. Who's will tell them the gospel, while the Church is gone? So, they saying that 144 super Jewish evangelists will replaced Church, to preach the gospel over the world to, many people will be saved during Tribulation period. 144 super Jewish evangelists replaced Church?? That is not actual what the Bible saying.

As far as I am concerned Replacement Theology (which you are advocating) is an aberrant theology; it is not Scriptural. Israel does exist even now. No one replaced it. They were set on a shelf; blinded for a season as the Bible says. During the Tribulation they will be saved as it says in Rom.11:22. Why contradict the plain teaching of the Bible? It doesn't say that they are super-evangelists. But it does say they are "sealed." They will be kept from harm.

The first part of Revelation 7:1-8 show the picture that Jews were saved first before Gentiles according in Romans 1:16, and Acts 1:8. Multitudes Jews were saved first during Early Church time, then the gospel spreading over Gentiles according Rev. 7:9-17.

The beginning of the Tribulation starts in Revelation chapter six. These 144,000 are sealed after that, after the beginning of the Tribulation. Your timeline is away off.

Revelation chapter 7 give the picture of the harvest of the world -rapture follow after the sixth seal occurs pictured as second coming.

What gives you that idea. It is near the beginning of the Tribulation, unless you can give evidence to the contrary.

Church doesn't replace Israel. Israel doesn't replace Church in Tribulation. Church is same as Israel. Church means God's people. Well as Israel means God's people.

The church is not the same as Israel; it never was. What tribe do you come from?

I ask you question, is there divide groups up in the heaven? Will you see "Israel" as literal physical Jewish nation people up there in heaven? Of course not.

Yes, there will be the twelve names of the tribes of Israel and the twelve names of the Apostles written on the foundations of the New Jerusalem. They will be represented in heaven. Study it out for yourself.

There is only one family in the heaven with the Lord. Because we have the same Lord in heaven. Jesus is Israel.

No, Jacob is the one called Israel; not Jesus. Learn your history.

We have Christ, so, we are on the same tree- salvation. Also, we have a big one city - New Jerusalem. in Revelation chapter 21 tells us, both Gentiles and Jews are living together in the same city.

They live together here also. And in this dispensation, as in every dispensation, salvation is the same--faith in the work of Christ.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

DHK,

Are you now member of commonwealth of Israel? - Eph. 2:12?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20- Amen!

 

[Martin Luther]

Matthew 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;

Ruth 4:21 And Salmon begat Boaz, and Boaz begat Obed,

Boaz was the son of Rahab the Harlot. Boaz's father was Salmon, as attested in both Ruth and Matthew.

Here's the thing, none of that changes what I have been saying, if these women were not Israelites, their good standing with God does not make them Israelites. In fact, it may help my point, that being that salvation was to all those who followed God. You cannot find a clearer picture of the N.T. church. Paul was an Israelite; he was added to the church. Just like today, all Israelites who follow Christ are added to the church and this will be the case until Christ returns. My original point still stands, an Israelite is a blood descendant of Abraham and a jew is a follower of O.T. law and not necessarily an Israelite.

 

[Martin Luther]

This is entirely untrue! No dispens. that I know teaches that anyone is saved except by grace through faith!!! Same in the OT, NT, for Jews, etc.

You don't get out much; I have never met a dispensationalist who knew his craft teach it any different. It was just dumb luck that they are exempt from any obedience.