Are the Jews still God's people?

[Bro. Curtis]

Bro. Curtis, how are people saved? By being a Jew? By being a citizen of Israel?

God did mean forever. All those from all times will be saved by grace through faith, not because they are a certain nationality. Paul makes this abundantly clear.
But now, not only do the OT saints receive the inheritance, but Gentiles will receive it as well. We are part of the same tree as Israel. We have been grafted in. Christ is the vine and only those who cling to the vine will be saved. In this way, God has kept and will continue to keep His promises. But His promises are not made to "countries" or "states", but only to those who have faith in His Son. This is true Israel.

People are saved by grace, thru faith. My point is that if God broke any promises, how can we trust his promise of salvation ? I never said being a Jew is equal to salvation.

 

[Martin Luther]

Show me where the original covenant is voided.

Hebrews 8:5-7 (King James Version)

5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

 

[Amy.G]

People are saved by grace, thru faith. My point is that if God broke any promises, how can we trust his promise of salvation ? I never said being a Jew is equal to salvation.

God has never broken His promises. He established Israel in order to glorify Himself, to bring all peoples to Himself and to bring the Savior to the world, so that the world could be saved through Him. He did all of that. Anyone who has faith in Christ as their Savior, receives all the promises made to Israel. And it's not just promises of physical land, but spritual land.

Hbr 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that [country] from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Hbr 11:16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Hbr 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I'm starting this thread in response to a statement made in a news thread about Americans being closely divided. . .

Do you believe the Jews are still God's chosen people, and that we should be friends with Isreal? Why or why not?

Yes, the Jews are still God's chosen people.

The current political state of Israel may contain many of God's chosen people, but I see no evidence that this current state is God's chosen people.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Hebrews 8:5-7 (King James Version)

5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

I agree. Here is the rest of the Chapter (NIV)

8But God found fault with the people and said[b]:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c]
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Yes, the Jews are still God's chosen people.

The current political state of Israel may contain many of God's chosen people, but I see no evidence that this current state is God's chosen people.

So we should not support Israel? Seems to me that if they are still God's chosen people then we should continue to support them.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Hebrews 8:5-7 (King James Version)

5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Jews rejected Christ, but that does not negate the promise of the land area. The new covenant according to Jeremiah chapter 31 deals with a scattered nation, before the regathering. I believe the New Covenant will have the church involved soteriologically, but will be fulfilled thru Israel.

As we inherit Christ's kingdom, we share in his promise for Israel.

As far as being friends with Israel, I believe we do her no favors with our conditional support. The quicker they stop relying on us, the quicker they well repent, and turn to Christ.

 

[Marcia]

Yes, the Jews are still God's chosen people.

The current political state of Israel may contain many of God's chosen people, but I see no evidence that this current state is God's chosen people.

I agree.

Gentile believers are "grafted in" to Israel, but there are still promises to Israel made by God that do not pertain to the church.

I do not believe the civil government of Israel is chosen, but Israel as a people is -- this will be fulfilled when many Jews are saved at the endtimes.

 

[webdog]

According to the apostle Paul, you are not "God's people" by physical birth, by being a Jew, by being an Israelite, by being a physcial descendent of Abraham.......You become God's people by faith in Christ alone. If you don't receive Christ as Savior, you will be condemned, regardless of nationality or blood line.
Israel is nation, just like the USA. That is all.




Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Then why do we have to be "grafted in" to the tree, unlike those of the seed of Abraham? The promises were to Israel, true Israel that is, those with the faith of Abraham.

 

[Amy.G]

If we have been grafted into Israel (and we have), then why do some want to keep us separate from Israel???

 

[webdog]

If we have been grafted into Israel (and we have), then why do some want to keep us separate from Israel???

That's the thing, we aren't grafted into Israel. We are grafted in WITH Israel. Israel isn't the life sustaining tree...Christ is. These jewish people (the true "elect" of the Bible, IMO) were the children of the promise (not all Israel IS Israel)

 

[billwald]

Joshua 23:
14 "Now I am about to go the way of all the earth. You know with all your heart and soul that not one of all the good promises the LORD your God gave you has failed. Every promise has been fulfilled; not one has failed. 15 But just as every good promise of the LORD your God has come true, so the LORD will bring on you all the evil he has threatened, until he has destroyed you from this good land he has given you. 16 If you violate the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, the LORD's anger will burn against you, and you will quickly perish from the good land he has given you."

In other words, a done deal. God did what he promised.

No, the Jews are no different than anyone else. No such thing as "holy" land (dirt, soil).

Until hyperdispensationalism was invented in the 19th century there was no theological need for holy dirt or practicing Jews. Not in Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, Reformed, Episcopal, or Presbyterian theology.

 

[webdog]

No, the Jews are no different than anyone else. No such thing as "holy" land (dirt, soil).

I'm sure this is what many a Caananite said, too.

 

[Amy.G]

That's the thing, we aren't grafted into Israel. We are grafted in WITH Israel. Israel isn't the life sustaining tree...Christ is. These jewish people (the true "elect" of the Bible, IMO) were the children of the promise (not all Israel IS Israel)

In with....into......what is the difference?

Of course Christ is the sustaining tree. Didn't I say that? The sustaining tree (Christ) only has branches that are true believers, whether Jew or Gentile. Nationality makes no difference.

 

[annsni]

I agree.

Gentile believers are "grafted in" to Israel, but there are still promises to Israel made by God that do not pertain to the church.

I do not believe the civil government of Israel is chosen, but Israel as a people is -- this will be fulfilled when many Jews are saved at the endtimes.

This is my understanding too.

 

[Amy.G]

Gentile believers are "grafted in" to Israel, but there are still promises to Israel made by God that do not pertain to the church.

What are the future promises that do not pertain to the church?

 

[webdog]

In with....into......what is the difference?

Of course Christ is the sustaining tree. Didn't I say that? The sustaining tree (Christ) only has branches that are true believers, whether Jew or Gentile. Nationality makes no difference.

The difference is, we are not natural branches. If there is no distinction, we would be natural branches. Being grafted into Israel, and being grafted along with Israel is a huge difference.

 

[Amy.G]

The difference is, we are not natural branches. If there is no distinction, we would be natural branches. Being grafted into Israel, and being grafted along with Israel is a huge difference.

Ok, so what is the difference between grafted along with and and grafted into? Scripture?

Saying we're not natural branches doesn't fly because we have been adopted into God's family. Do adopted children receive anything different than natural children?

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

 

[webdog]

Ok, so what is the difference between grafted along with and and grafted into? Scripture?

You dont' need Scripture to define words and statments. One statement has gentile believers grafted into Israel, then grafted into the Tree or Vine...the other alongside, or with Israel into the Tree of Vine. You can't see the difference?

Saying we're not natural branches doesn't fly because we have been adopted into God's family. Do adopted children receive anything different than natural children?

I recall in those days it did, hence the mataphor of adoption. If there were no distinction...why wasn't Israel called the church and vice versa? Also, why is Israel referred to by God as His firstborn son? (Ex. 4:22) Why are believers waiting "eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies" (Rom. 8:23) if there is no distinction?

 

[Amy.G]

You dont' need Scripture to define words and statments. One statement has gentile believers grafted into Israel, then grafted into the Tree or Vine...the other alongside, or with Israel into the Tree of Vine. You can't see the difference?

Sorry. No. Are you telling me that my neighbor who is a Messianic Jew will get a different inheritance than me, the Gentile dog? Even though we both became God's child by faith in Christ? One faith, one God, one Savior? But our Father will treat us differently?

I recall in those days it did, hence the mataphor of adoption. If there were no distinction...why wasn't Israel called the church and vice versa?

Maybe because it's a distinction in name only? Israel was pre-Christ, appointed to be the people through whom the Christ would come?

The church is post-Christ?


Gotta make dinner. In the words of Arnold.....I'll be back!