Are the Jews still God's people?

[Martin Luther]

Jews rejected Christ, but that does not negate the promise of the land area. The new covenant according to Jeremiah chapter 31 deals with a scattered nation, before the regathering. I believe the New Covenant will have the church involved soteriologically, but will be fulfilled thru Israel.

As we inherit Christ's kingdom, we share in his promise for Israel.

As far as being friends with Israel, I believe we do her no favors with our conditional support. The quicker they stop relying on us, the quicker they well repent, and turn to Christ.

All men must come to God through Christ, Israelites are no exception. Just like the apostles they are added to the bride. Even in the O.T. any non Israelite could join if they followed Gods, nothing has really changed in that regards.

 

[webdog]

Sorry. No. Are you telling me that my neighbor who is a Messianic Jew will get a different inheritance than me, the Gentile dog? Even though we both became God's child by faith in Christ? One faith, one God, one Savior? But our Father will treat us differently?

No, that's not what I am saying at all. I was simply showing the difference of being "natural" as opposed to being grafted in with the natural. The benefits are the same, but the circumstances and distinction are different. One's a firstborn son, one is adopted into this position. Two distinct but equal distinctions.

Maybe because it's a distinction in name only? Israel was pre-Christ, appointed to be the people through whom the Christ would come?

The church is post-Christ?

Why would it be distinction in name only? I edited my post why you were replying, why is Israel referred to by God as His firstborn son? (Ex. 4:22) Why are believers waiting "eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies" (Rom. 8:23) if there is no distinction?

 

[Jim1999]

JUst maybe Israel will be fulfilled through the church.

Cheers.

Jim

 

[KenH]

Galatians 3:7-9 (ESV)
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. [8] And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed." [9] So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

The New Testament is clear - those who have faith have claim as the sons of Abraham, not those who are merely physically descended from him.

 

[Marcia]

What are the future promises that do not pertain to the church?

This issue is very intense in the church and we certainly aren't going to settle it here. Some believe that the church has replaced Israel and others believe the church and Israel are different as treated in the Bible (though no one I know says Jews are saved without believing in Christ - this is not about how one is saved, which is faith in Christ for everyone!).

I am posting this because I do not deal with this topic often and have not formulated my arguments/statements on it, nor do I have time now. I am learning from this, too. At least we should learn each other's views, as both of these views are in the church among believers.

The other view, we believe, is clearly taught in the New Testament, but it has been suppressed throughout most of Church history. This view is that the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two should not be confused. In fact, the Church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the Day of Pentecost after Christ’s resurrection from the dead, and will continue until it is taken to Heaven at the Rapture return of the Lord (Eph. 1:9-11). None of the curses or blessings pronounced upon Israel refer directly to the Church. The Church enters into the Abrahamic and New Covenants, for instance, only by divine application, not by original interpretation (Matt 26:28).
This leaves all the covenants, promises, and warnings to Israel intact. Israel, the natural Jewish nation, is still Israel. To be sure, Israel has been side-lined during these past 1,900 years of the Diaspora. The Church has taken center stage in the Lord’s affairs as the Gospel has spread throughout the world. Nevertheless, God has carefully preserved the Jewish people, even in unbelief, through every kind of distress and persecution. Sometimes, the professing Church itself (I speak to our shame) has been a cause of these persecutions to the Jews.
Not only has God preserved the Jewish nation, but He has also kept His promise to save a remnant of Israel in every generation. The remnant of Israel in this age are the Jewish believers in Christ who have joined the Gentile believers, and form the Church, the Body of Christ (Rom. 11:5). In this respect, then, a part of Israel (the believing remnant) intersects with the Church during the Church Age. But this does not make Israel the Church, or vice versa
<More>

Source
http://www.levitt.com/essays/israel-church.html

Amy, have you read any of those books I suggested giving the various endtime views?

 

[tinytim]

Actually the answer to this question decides how you view endtime events..

If Israel is still God's people, they you are more likely to be Dispy....
If not, you are more likly to be Covenant.

1) we all agree one must accept Christ as Savior to be God's child.
2) Not all of Israel will be saved.. therefore not all of them are his children.


The real question is, does all the promises to Israel get transferred to the church at Calvary?

I am simply not sure at this point in my understanding.

It just seems strange to me that all the world hate's Israel.

There is something up with that... something spiritual.

 

[LeBuick]

Yes, the Jews are still God's chosen people.

The current political state of Israel may contain many of God's chosen people, but I see no evidence that this current state is God's chosen people.

I don't follow your response, are you separating the Jews from Israel?

 

[tinytim]

There is obviously something special about the land...
And since God decided to give it to Israel, we should not question God.

Today's Israel may be where she is in order to fulfill the plans of God.
If so, We as the Children of God must still support the nation of Israel. In doing so, we are pleasing God.

 

[tinytim]

I don't follow your response, are you separating the Jews from Israel?

I have had a tendency to do that...

Is the current nation of Israel the physical descendents of Abraham... they say they are, but are we sure.

He is seperating the true Jews from todays modern Israel...

 

[LeBuick]

Jews rejected Christ, but that does not negate the promise of the land area. The new covenant according to Jeremiah chapter 31 deals with a scattered nation, before the regathering. I believe the New Covenant will have the church involved soteriologically, but will be fulfilled thru Israel.

As we inherit Christ's kingdom, we share in his promise for Israel.

As far as being friends with Israel, I believe we do her no favors with our conditional support. The quicker they stop relying on us, the quicker they well repent, and turn to Christ.

Wasn't Christ the fulfillment of the OT or the promise? Nothing was negated, God fulfilled His end of the deal but the Jews turned it down (they first rejected the fulfillment then hung it on a cross).

I am interested in knowing which promises you still need to be fulfilled?

 

[Marcia]

Amy, this article compares the 2 views:
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=534

They give overviews of Covenant and Classic Disp. views; I think they give a fair overview of each, citing scripture for each view.

Then they end with the progressive disp. view, which is where they are coming from. I think it's an article done fairly and without attacking other views. This is how Christians should present opposing views, which we are allowed to have on these matters without being attacked.

 

[LeBuick]

I have had a tendency to do that...

Is the current nation of Israel the physical descendents of Abraham... they say they are, but are we sure.

He is seperating the true Jews from todays modern Israel...

I see... I am being sincere, when in history do we feel modern Israel strayed away from its foundation of Judaism?

My personal belief is when they rejected Christ.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I am interested in knowing which promises you still need to be fulfilled?

Um, a 1000 year reign, a lion next to a lamb, y'know. Biblical stuff.

 

[tinytim]

I see... I am being sincere, when in history do we feel modern Israel strayed away from its foundation of Judaism?

My personal belief is when they rejected Christ.

I agree.. God promised Abraham that his descendants would bless the world.
That happened with Christ. But they rejected Him. That left the door open to us..

 

[Amy.G]

There is obviously something special about the land...
And since God decided to give it to Israel, we should not question God.

Today's Israel may be where she is in order to fulfill the plans of God.
If so, We as the Children of God must still support the nation of Israel. In doing so, we are pleasing God.

I hear people say this a lot. But how far are you willing to go to "support" Israel? It's easy to support a country that tries to live peaceably but keeps getting picked on by neighboring terrorist countries, but what if Israel was a murderous country like Iraq? What if the Israeli government was run by a Saddam Hussein type leader that killed millions because of his power hungry evil spirit? Would you still support Israel?
Israel continues to reject our Lord and Savior who came to them!
Yet we Christians want to support that?

We should treat Israel the same as any other peace loving nation, and that should be the only reason for us to support them. IMO. I have a problem saying that I will support any nation that rejects Christ.

 

[tinytim]

When that happens I will evaluate it then.. but for now, I support Israel.

 

[Amy.G]

When that happens I will evaluate it then.. but for now, I support Israel.

It already has happened. Israel has had many wicked kings.

 

[LeBuick]

Um, a 1000 year reign, a lion next to a lamb, y'know. Biblical stuff.

Yes, he promised a utopic relationship where animals will behave ot commingle like before the fall of man. This peaceable kingdom and the way to these promises is via the Church. So I guess the question here is, what if you are Israel but you reject the Church or the Way? How then will you get to the promise?

Now if you back up just a bit in that chapter of Is you will see;

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

This is Christ. The one who the Jews rejected then hung on a cross. God fulfilled his promise by sending his only begotten son. Some believed and are part of the Church. Some had saving forward looking faith (Heb 11) and are saved. I don't know how one gets to the promises of God if they reject His Church???

I don't believe in a parallel saving institution or should I say, I don't see one in the Bible.

 

[LeBuick]

Triplicate post... The board is really messing up tonight...???

 

[LeBuick]

Duplicate post... Not sure why the BB goes down nightly or starts hanging late at night???