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Are The Letters Of Apostle Paul ALL that We gentiles need to heed?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
Of course that is heresy.
beameup
Member
I'm sure there are some who would completely ignore Paul's Epistles,
especially Romans chapter 9, 10 and 11, and create a heresy.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. - Romans 11:25
especially Romans chapter 9, 10 and 11, and create a heresy.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. - Romans 11:25
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That is apparently the view of some ultra-dispensationalists. I have also read that some of the extreme ultra-dispensationalists [a double superlative I suppose] believe that only Paul's prison Epistles are for the Church. Some believe that the Church was not really started until Acts 28 [Charles Ryrie, Dispensationalism, Chapter 11.
I believe that ituttut and beameup would be considered ultra-dispensationalists. beameup has made an issue of the Apostle Paul not giving up on the Jews and the kingdom [That is rejection of the nation Israel.] until Acts 28. Ryrie calls these the extreme ultra-dispensationalists.
I believe it is important to note the following by the Apostle Paul:
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. [Romans 15:4]
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [2 Timothy 3:16]
I believe that ituttut and beameup would be considered ultra-dispensationalists. beameup has made an issue of the Apostle Paul not giving up on the Jews and the kingdom [That is rejection of the nation Israel.] until Acts 28. Ryrie calls these the extreme ultra-dispensationalists.
I believe it is important to note the following by the Apostle Paul:
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. [Romans 15:4]
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [2 Timothy 3:16]
Think those holding to such theology would see the Gospels as just to isreal, or to the in between state between law to Grace, and they also don't see water baptism/communion for us either!
One of the earliet heresies of the Church came from a guy named Marcion of Sinope who, c. AD 250, proposed that one only needed the Pauline epistles and an edited (by himself) version of Luke for the Bible.
Marcion also denied the efficacy of the OT. But that is because he was a Gnostic Paulinist who, rightly, was labeled an arch-heretic and dismissed from the early Church.
It is heresy, historically shown, to believe that the only NT text are the Pauline letters. The Church has never accepted this and it denies a proper, and orthodox, framing of inspiration and bibliology.
Marcion also denied the efficacy of the OT. But that is because he was a Gnostic Paulinist who, rightly, was labeled an arch-heretic and dismissed from the early Church.
It is heresy, historically shown, to believe that the only NT text are the Pauline letters. The Church has never accepted this and it denies a proper, and orthodox, framing of inspiration and bibliology.
Think that at times though, it has been true that we in the Christian church have tended to see pauline theology as being almost as "superior" revelation, as much of our Theology would go direct sourced to him, sprinkled in at times with other Aostolic writers!
ALL NT letters are equally inspired and equal revelation of God .....
preacher4truth
Active Member
Let's heed Pauls writings.
He tells Timothy all Scriptures are inspired of God; All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 2 Timothy 3:16 - this would include the canon of the OT Scriptures, and of the NT Scriptures, probably unknown what all this would encompass at the time he had written this.
These would also be the Scriptures he instructed Timothy to preach to the church; Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
2 Timothy 2:15
Therefore we see that in the "church age" Paul told us to heed the OT Scriptures. One cannot heed Pauls writings "alone" without also heeding the OT Scriptures due to the fact he gave commandment to do so.
Any deviation from this is heresy.
He tells Timothy all Scriptures are inspired of God; All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 2 Timothy 3:16 - this would include the canon of the OT Scriptures, and of the NT Scriptures, probably unknown what all this would encompass at the time he had written this.
These would also be the Scriptures he instructed Timothy to preach to the church; Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
2 Timothy 2:15
Therefore we see that in the "church age" Paul told us to heed the OT Scriptures. One cannot heed Pauls writings "alone" without also heeding the OT Scriptures due to the fact he gave commandment to do so.
Any deviation from this is heresy.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
According to dispensationalist Ryrie some extreme ultra-dispensationalists reject water baptism and I assume the Lord's Supper. Perhaps ituttut or beameup would enlighten everyone. Generally the ultra-dispensationalists insist that the Gospel Paul preached was not the Gospel Jesus Christ preached. Like the Apostle Paul I believe that is heresy.
Keep in mind Paulinism was a dominate sect within the early church that caused a lot of strife. Their claims, in some regions, we're the same as modern ultra-dispensationalists...i.e. this isn't a new false teaching.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You are correct Amy and that thread is the redemptive purpose of God for His people. Now if you could just understand that the Church and spiritual Israel of the Old Covenant are one. Read what the Apostle Paul says in Romans 11 about the olive tree!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Most false doctrine has the habit of popping up periodically throughout history!
2Ti 3:14 But [Timothy] continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them [Paul];
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Hmm. Paul told Timothy to continue in the things that he learned from Paul. A hyper-dispensationalism would certainly say, "Of course! Paul was teaching him 'The Mystery'!" However, what did Paul say he was teaching? The same thing that Timothy learned from a child from the Hold Scriptures, which, of course, had to be the Old Testament. When Timothy was a child "The Mystery" was not revealed. Paul says that these Scriptures "are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." If "The Mystery" is supposed to be a totally new "program" with a new way of salvation, how is it that Paul says that the Old Testament Scriptures are able to teach Timothy how he would be saved during Paul's ministry?
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Hmm. Paul told Timothy to continue in the things that he learned from Paul. A hyper-dispensationalism would certainly say, "Of course! Paul was teaching him 'The Mystery'!" However, what did Paul say he was teaching? The same thing that Timothy learned from a child from the Hold Scriptures, which, of course, had to be the Old Testament. When Timothy was a child "The Mystery" was not revealed. Paul says that these Scriptures "are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." If "The Mystery" is supposed to be a totally new "program" with a new way of salvation, how is it that Paul says that the Old Testament Scriptures are able to teach Timothy how he would be saved during Paul's ministry?
the Kingdom was taken away from isreal "for a season" due to theur willful rejection of their Messiah, was given unto the gentiles, but once all of the fulness of them came in, God will go back to restoration of His people Isreal of the OT...
Peter said that jesus reserved/held in heaven untile time of full restoration, and that will be at Second Coming, when all isreal{Jewish nation) alive at that time will receive messiah, nation reborn per Ezeckiel vision, all isreal at that time indeed shall be saved!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
17. And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Must be in the fine print! Guess I am going to have to get new glasses.
Earlier in the same epistle:
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
For those of you hyperdispensationalists (Acts 9+, 12-in types) who claim that Peter and Paul taught two different gospels to two different peoples of God with two different destinies, note that some of the body of Christ whom Paul addressed were claiming to be of Peter. Paul did not challenge their standing in Christ. Instead, he said this division was their carnality.
1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas[b/], or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
Note again, that Peter is included in the list, and Paul does not distinguish his "program." They are all "ministers by whom ye believed."
Hyperdispensationalists do not take Paul's advice when they claim that Paul, as an apostle to the Gentiles, had an entirely separate gospel program to an entirely separate people of God with an entirely separate destiny.