Are the OT Believers part of the Body of Christ?

[Dennis324]

II. What is meant by prison here? Purgatory, or the limbus patrum, say the Romanists - a place in which departed souls are supposed to be confined, and in which their final destiny may still be effected by the purifying fires which they endure, by the prayers of the living, or by a message in some way conveyed to their gloomy abodes - in which such sins may be expiated as do not deserve eternal damnation. The Syriac here is “in Sheol,” referring to the abodes of the dead, or the place in which departed spirits are supposed to dwell. The word rendered “prison,” (φυλακῇ phulakē,) means properly “watch, guard” - the act of keeping watch, or the guard itself; then watchpost, or station; then a place where anyone is watched or guarded, as a prison; then a watch in the sense of a division of the night, as the morning watch. It is used in the New Testament, with reference to the future world, only in the following places: 1Pe_3:19, “Preached unto the spirits in prison;” and Rev_20:7, “Satan shall be loosed put of his prison.”
An idea similar to the one here expressed may be found in 2Pe_2:4, though the word prison does not there occur: “God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;” and in Jud_1:6, “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains, under darkness, unto the judgment of the great day.”

When 1Pe_3:19 speaks of 'prison', isn't he talking about hell though...rather than some sort of purgatory? As I understand it, Purgatory is a Roman Catholic teaching that describes a temporary place of punishment. In general don't protestant churches reject the doctrine of purgatory?

And this prison then,... surely this isn't necessarily the abode of the OT saints. It seems rather that the prison is the likely destination of the fallen angels (2 Peter 2:4) that God cast down into hell...the angels that rebelled against God.

 

[Jope]

This is an interesting topic of discussion. :thumbs: I'm not going to post a long thing here that's hard to read, but I do have some questions.

In Luke 16: 19-31 Jesus tells the story about the Rich man and the beggar Lazarus. When the beggar died, the angels came and carried him to Abraham's bosom or Abraham's side. The rich man goes to hell and while there calls up to Abraham.

If Abraham is asleep, or whatever, who is the rich man actually calling to? Abraham is apparently active and in some sort of heaven isn't he?

In another example, Hebrews tells us that Enoch apparently did not die but was carried off. He is likely not asleep in the ground waiting for the second coming is he?

Wasn't Elijah was carried off in a whirlwind into heaven 2 Kings 2: 11-12?

Did not both Moses and Elijah both appeared at the Transfiguration and talked with Jesus in Luke 9: 11-12?

I don't know if they are "the body of Christ" as in Christians...but apparently they believe. I don't think they are asleep. I think they are in Paradise as Jesus termed it.

The grave and Sheol/Hades are separate places. The grave is where the body lies. Sheol/Hades is where the soul and/or spirit of men went to after their physical death.

Concerning Enoch and Elijah; when they were raptured, their bodies were taken into heaven.

These are both figures of Christ.

No man was able to ascend to heaven except Christ (John 3:13). That is why I say that they are figures of Christ.

Concerning Hades/Sheol, there was a partition in it for the elect pre-Christ saints (the lazarus Luke 16 passage). Many of them had to wait for Christ's preaching to ascend with Him into the heavens (cf. John 5:24-29; Mt. 27:52-53; Eph. 4:8).

 

[Dennis324]

Concerning Hades/Sheol, there was a partition in it for the elect pre-Christ saints (the lazarus Luke 16 passage). Many of them had to wait for Christ's preaching to ascend with Him into the heavens (cf. John 5:24-29; Mt. 27:52-53; Eph. 4:8).

This is interesting.

Jn 5: 28-29 Christ says "Do not be amazed at this for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out _ those who have done good will live and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned".

We saw the dead rise when Jesus was crucified. (Mt 27: 52-53)

There was also a 3 day period I think before Jesus was resurrected. I've wondered what was going on during those 3 days?

Paul tells us in Eph 4:9 that he (Jesus?) descended into the lower, earthly regions. Or at least he asks the question.

What are these earthly regions? Hades? Hell?

Now this NIV study bible (I'm using it right now just because it is handy at the moment) says in the notes that Jesus probably did not descend into hell. But I've heard others say he did and preached there. So I don't know. What do ya'll think?

I don't think the OT saints were in Hell. I don't think Jesus preached to the OT saints in hell. Why would they be in Hell? But the angels who fell with Satan would be wouldn't they? So maybe Jesus preached to them?

Or maybe Jesus descended into Hades and the OT Saints were there? Maybe Jesus preached to them there?

I'm guessing here, but I would imagine that the OT saints probably rose during the resurrection and at that point it became obvious that the prophecy had become true and Jesus was who he said he was. At that point they probably became...Christian. :jesus:

 

[Jope]

This is interesting.

Jn 5: 28-29 Christ says "Do not be amazed at this for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out _ those who have done good will live and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned".

We saw the dead rise when Jesus was crucified. (Mt 27: 52-53)

There was also a 3 day period I think before Jesus was resurrected. I've wondered what was going on during those 3 days?

Christ preached (John 5:24-29; 1Pet. 3:19-20), while He was in Hades/Sheol (Acts 2:25-31).

Paul tells us in Eph 4:9 that he (Jesus?) descended into the lower, earthly regions. Or at least he asks the question.

In order to have ascended with those captives, He had to have descended to Hades/Sheol where they dwelt first. This is why Paul asks the question: "In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?" (Eph. 4:9, ESV).

What are these earthly regions? Hades? Hell?

Think of our english word "hell" as the partition of Sheol/Hades where the wicked went and suffered, as that rich man did (Luke 16:24). If you read the original Hebrew and Greek, you'll find the words Sheol and Hades. Sheol is the same place as Hades. Sheol is Hebrew, Hades is Greek (If you study the New Testament Greek usage of the Hebrew Psalm 16:10, in Acts 2:25-31, you'll see this).

It is actually Hades (not "hell") that the rich man and Lazarus went to in Luke 16:19-31. If you look at the Greek, you'll see "Hades" in verse 23.

It is Sheol/Hades that all the Pre-Christ saints went to (Eccles. 9:10).

Sheol/Hades and the grave are separate places.

We see this in the account of Jacob and his son Joseph.

Jacob knew that he would go to Sheol to be with his son (Gen. 37:35).

Genesis 37 ESV
35 All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, “No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.” Thus his father wept for him.

- Bold emphasis mine​

He also thought that his son was torn in pieces, and so therefore, his son wouldn't have a grave (in Jacob's mind; Gen. 37:32-33).

Genesis 37 ESV
32 And they sent the robe of many colors and brought it to their father and said, “This we have found; please identify whether it is your son's robe or not.” 33 And he identified it and said, “It is my son's robe. A fierce animal has devoured him. Joseph is without doubt torn to pieces.”

- Bold emphasis mine​

He couldn't have gotten to his son in a grave that didn't exist, if Joseph actually was torn in pieces.

Therefore, Sheol and the Grave are separate places.

There is another Hebrew word used for the grave.

Now this NIV study bible (I'm using it right now just because it is handy at the moment) says in the notes that Jesus probably did not descend into hell. But I've heard others say he did and preached there. So I don't know. What do ya'll think?

Acts 2:25-31 overrides the NIV study Bible.

"[David] foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he [Christ] was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption" (Acts 2:31, ESV, Bold emphasis mine).​

Jesus was in Hades/Sheol. Matthew 12:39-40 also testifies of this:

"For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40, ESV).​

I don't think the OT saints were in Hell.

They were in Sheol/Hades, but not in the suffering partition of it that the rich man was in (Luke 16:23). There was a "great chasm...fixed" (Luke 16:26, ESV).

I don't think Jesus preached to the OT saints in hell. Why would they be in Hell?

They would be in Hades/Sheol, in the comforting partition of it:

"...now he [Lazarus] is comforted here [in Hades], and you [rich man] are in anguish" (Luke 16:25, ESV).​

 

[Dennis324]

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. :smilewinkgrin:

One of my favorite books is called "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn. In it he talks a lot about what you are describing. I get that the grave and Hades are 2 different places. Alcorn mentions that Jesus said "I go to prepare a place for you" and also to the thief on the cross "this day you will be with me in paradise".

It sounds like Jesus did something that changed the rules for people after death, in that maybe they no longer would have to go to Hades, but rather to what he called Paradise. I don't think this is the same as purgatory, which is what the Roman Catholics believe (I think) is a place of some form of punishment for folks who are not yet free of sin.

Anyway (I think ) maybe we have a situation where you have God residing in Heaven, Christians residing in Paradise after death and then bad folks down in Hades. Maybe Jesus remodeled it, I dunno. :laugh:

So when the Christian dies, do we go to Paradise to await judgement? (Not the place where God the Father resides...not yet).