Yes it is your choice. You also had a choice when you were an unbeliever, that is the point. Paul obeyed the Law and yet he was unsaved. Get it? You keep saying that as an unbeliever, you couldn't do anything but sin. That is simply not true. In fact, many unbelievers sin less than many believers. But it won't save them on judgment day.
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Are The Unsaved REALLY Free to NOT Sin?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
Yes it is your choice. You also had a choice when you were an unbeliever, that is the point. Paul obeyed the Law and yet he was unsaved. Get it? You keep saying that as an unbeliever, you couldn't do anything but sin. That is simply not true. In fact, many unbelievers sin less than many believers. But it won't save them on judgment day.
Apostle Paul shows us that even a saved person can and will be under control of Sin IF they refuse to yield to the HS, and to have the power from/of the Cross in their lives!
We are either under the flesh, or under the living and dwelling HS in us...
Our choice in the matter!
That is not what Jesus or Paul taught. Jesus said he that commits sin is the servant of sin. You teach the exact opposite, that we are servants of sin and therefore MUST sin.
Let me ask you, is any man born with a bottle of Jack Daniels in his hand? Is he born a slave to alcohol?
Or rather, does a man willfully choose to drink and to continue drinking until he becomes addicted and a slave?
Which is it? Tell the truth.
That is not what Jesus or Paul taught. Jesus said he that commits sin is the servant of sin. You teach the exact opposite, that we are servants of sin and therefore MUST sin.
Let me ask you, is any man born with a bottle of Jack Daniels in his hand? Is he born a slave to alcohol?
Or rather, does a man willfully choose to drink and to continue drinking until he becomes addicted and a slave?
Which is it? Tell the truth.
right from the Word of God on this...
man is a sinner from birth, inherited from father Adam, born "in Adam and his likeness"
man is a sinner by nature, who will choose to act out that by commiting sinful acts...
ALL are bound in sinful,weal flesh, desire to disobey God, and to do wrong...
That is the truth of the "human condition!"
right from the Word of God on this...
man is a sinner from birth, inherited from father Adam, born "in Adam and his likeness"
man is a sinner by nature, who will choose to act out that by commiting sinful acts...
ALL are bound in sinful,weal flesh, desire to disobey God, and to do wrong...
That is the truth of the "human condition!"
That is not what the scriptures teach, and as usual you do not give one verse of scripture to support it.
Cain was Adam's first son, but God said he could have given an acceptable sacrifice of worship and if he did would be accepted (Gen 4:6-7).
Both Moses and Joshua said the Jews could make a choice whether to serve God or not.
JF, you have been shown this numerous times, but would rather believe Augustine and Calvin. You have exactly ZERO scripture to support that man is unable to obey God.
Your view gives man a perfect excuse for sin and blames God. That is all it is about.
That is not what the scriptures teach, and as usual you do not give one verse of scripture to support it.
Cain was Adam's first son, but God said he could have given an acceptable sacrifice of worship and if he did would be accepted (Gen 4:6-7).
Both Moses and Joshua said the Jews could make a choice whether to serve God or not.
JF, you have been shown this numerous times, but would rather believe Augustine and Calvin. You have exactly ZERO scripture to support that man is unable to obey God.
Your view gives man a perfect excuse for sin and blames God. That is all it is about.
Could the law make one acceptable before a Hokly God, Yes, BUT ONLY if a person fully kept as God intended, ONLY Jesus ever did that!
paul called us weak and sinful flesh, ws he wrong?
preacher4truth
Active Member
Scriptures teach implicitly that man is incapable of obeying God. God has given commands that He knows man cannot ever keep. I know some here want to argue they can "keep" it, yet they don't know what "keep" actually entails, thus they are in error both theologically and spiritually.
To God, obedience and His standard is perfection, not just doing a little "good" and a little "obedience" here and there. Anything less than complete and total perfection is failure, which is where all of mankind stands. Thus we preach the Gospel.
Also, no man has come even close to complete and total obedience. Instead all mankind has miserably failed. Only One, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ was capable, and only He could fulfill this alone. To even suggest that man had a possibility of doing so, or "keep" the law is divergence of truth.
To others? They disagree with this and God's censure upon mankind (The Biblical indictment) and are on a campaign for mankinds "goodness."
To God, obedience and His standard is perfection, not just doing a little "good" and a little "obedience" here and there. Anything less than complete and total perfection is failure, which is where all of mankind stands. Thus we preach the Gospel.
Also, no man has come even close to complete and total obedience. Instead all mankind has miserably failed. Only One, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ was capable, and only He could fulfill this alone. To even suggest that man had a possibility of doing so, or "keep" the law is divergence of truth.
To others? They disagree with this and God's censure upon mankind (The Biblical indictment) and are on a campaign for mankinds "goodness."
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Scriptures teach implicitly that man is incapable of obeying God. God has given commands that He knows man cannot ever keep. I know some here want to argue they can "keep" it, yet they don't know what "keep" actually entails, thus they are in error theologically abd spiritually.
To God, obedience and His standard is perfection, not just doing a little "good" and a little "obedience" here and there. Anything less than complete and total perfection is failure, which is where all of mankind stands. Thus we preach the Gospel.
Also, no man has come even close to complete and total obedience. Instead all mankind has miserably failed. Only One, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ was capable, and only He could fulfill this alone. To even suggest that man had a possibility of doing so, or "keep" the law is divergence of truth.
To others? They disagree with this and God's censure upon mankind (The Biblical indictment) and instead are on a campaign for mankinds goodness.
They are in error as to just HOW spiritually wreaked the fall of Adam made us, and that NONE come hope to be good before a Holy God by/of themselves!
Its either keeping the Law. or the Cross, BOTh cannot be true to save us!
Could the law make one acceptable before a Hokly God, Yes, BUT ONLY if a person fully kept as God intended, ONLY Jesus ever did that!
paul called us weak and sinful flesh, ws he wrong?
You are changing the subject. Being ABLE to obey God and being sinless are two separate subjects. The scriptures do not teach that man is unable to obey God. The scriptures do teach that all men sin, that no man is perfectly obedient.
I am able to obey the speed limit on the highway, but I don't always do so.
You have never answered my original question, can you name me even one time in your life you were forced to sin?
Do not deflect, please answer that question.
preacher4truth
Active Member
They are in error as to just HOW spiritually wreaked the fall of Adam made us, and that NONE come hope to be good before a Holy God by/of themselves!
Its either keeping the Law. or the Cross, BOTh cannot be true to save us!
They'll argue against this and for themselves (for the "sake" and "goodness" and "ability" of mankind).
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They'll argue against this and for themselves.
I'll ask you the same question, can you tell us even one time in your life you were forced to sin?
freeatlast
New Member
Or are they ALL under bondage of the flesh, and forced to sin?
The answer is yes and no. No one has to sin, saved or lost. However even when the lost keep the commands they are still sinning as only what is done for the Lord will stand and they can do nothing for Him while lost. Even their righteous deeds are like a filthy rag.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Scriptures teach implicitly that man is incapable of obeying God. God has given commands that He knows man cannot ever keep. I know some here want to argue they can "keep" it, yet they don't know what "keep" actually entails, thus they are in error both theologically and spiritually.
To God, obedience and His standard is perfection, not just doing a little "good" and a little "obedience" here and there. Anything less than complete and total perfection is failure, which is where all of mankind stands. Thus we preach the Gospel.
Also, no man has come even close to complete and total obedience. Instead all mankind has miserably failed. Only One, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ was capable, and only He could fulfill this alone. To even suggest that man had a possibility of doing so, or "keep" the law is divergence of truth.
To others? They disagree with this and God's censure upon mankind (The Biblical indictment) and are on a campaign for mankinds "goodness."
Not exactly correct, scripture (and experience) teach that man is unable to stay in a state of obedience to God.
He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father Amaziah had done. II Chronicles 26:4
quantumfaith
Active Member
Are the unsaved really free to not sin? Yes.
Are they under the bondage of the flesh? Yes.
Are they "forced" to sin? No; even unsaved people can choose to refrain from sinful acts.
Whether they sin or not, will they still go to hell? Yes.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
freeatlast
New Member
Are the unsaved really free to not sin? Yes.
Are they under the bondage of the flesh? Yes.
Are they "forced" to sin? No; even unsaved people can choose to refrain from sinful acts.
Whether they sin or not, will they still go to hell? Yes.
Agreed! :thumbsup:
convicted1
Guest
Are the unsaved really free to not sin? Yes.
Are they under the bondage of the flesh? Yes.
Are they "forced" to sin? No; even unsaved people can choose to refrain from sinful acts.
Whether they sin or not, will they still go to hell? Yes.
Very well stated, Brother!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
convicted1
Guest
Two things happen when you're saved. You are saved from the penalty of sin and you will want to please God, which will cause you to sin much less. But you always had a choice to sin or not, otherwise every unbeliever on earth would be in prison.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
The answer is yes and no. No one has to sin, saved or lost. However even when the lost keep the commands they are still sinning as only what is done for the Lord will stand and they can do nothing for Him while lost. Even their righteous deeds are like a filthy rag.
I disagree with this. When an unsaved person tells the truth he is not sinning. Your view renders God's commands meaningless and nonsensical, there would be no difference between sin and righteousness.
The scriptures do not say unsaved men cannot do righteous acts, but rather that a man's righteousness is marred and polluted by his sin.
If telling the truth is sin, then why a command against lying? God should have commanded we not speak at all, but even this would be sin in your view.
This view is gross error.
The Law was NEVER meant to save the soul. It is only the schoolmaster showing us our sin and revealing to us that we HAVE sinned. Only faith in the shed blood of Christ will save the soul and rejection of the revelation of the Holy Spirit about who Christ is is the ONLY sin that cannot be forgiven.
Back to the OP......the unsaved most certainly DO have a choice to sin or not to sin. Churches are full of unsaved people who lead a moral life, but they are as lost as last years Easter egg.
Paul explains this in detail when giving an account of his own life and accomplishments. He was "able" to be obedient to the Law, was a Pharisee of Pharisees, was educated by the most intellectual of his day, and YET he was lost. So to say that the lost CANNOT do anything but sin is ridiculous and is just another way to try and "prove" the unbiblical tenants of Calvinism.
Back to the OP......the unsaved most certainly DO have a choice to sin or not to sin. Churches are full of unsaved people who lead a moral life, but they are as lost as last years Easter egg.
Paul explains this in detail when giving an account of his own life and accomplishments. He was "able" to be obedient to the Law, was a Pharisee of Pharisees, was educated by the most intellectual of his day, and YET he was lost. So to say that the lost CANNOT do anything but sin is ridiculous and is just another way to try and "prove" the unbiblical tenants of Calvinism.
When we put our faith in Jesus, we do so as an unsaved person. Calvinism says we are regenerated - but not saved - and then we come to faith irresistibly - and then we are saved. Pure twaddle. Jesus says your faith has saved you. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish. Paul says our faith in Christ provides our access to God's grace. The Bible is clear, we are called by the gospel, then based on crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness, we are chosen and placed in Christ, and once in Christ God protects our faith, such at we are "the called, chosen and faithful."
Therefore, contrary to Calvinism, the Bible teaches that some of the unsaved (three of the four soils) can received the gospel and put their faith in Christ. Next, the Bible teaches that the extent in which folks trust in Christ and make Him their only priority, rather than one of their priorities, varies. Thus it is God alone who evaluates a person's faith and either credits it as righteousness or not. The false doctrines of Calvinism turns these simple truths into mush, making the bible to no effect by the clever stories of men.
Therefore, contrary to Calvinism, the Bible teaches that some of the unsaved (three of the four soils) can received the gospel and put their faith in Christ. Next, the Bible teaches that the extent in which folks trust in Christ and make Him their only priority, rather than one of their priorities, varies. Thus it is God alone who evaluates a person's faith and either credits it as righteousness or not. The false doctrines of Calvinism turns these simple truths into mush, making the bible to no effect by the clever stories of men.
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