freeatlast
New Member
No the bible teaches that by the deeds of the law no one will be saved. Only that which is done in Christ will stand. Doing a bunch of rules wihtout doing them in spirit is still sin.
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Are The Unsaved REALLY Free to NOT Sin?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
No the bible teaches that by the deeds of the law no one will be saved. Only that which is done in Christ will stand. Doing a bunch of rules wihtout doing them in spirit is still sin.
That no one will be saved by the deeds of the law is true.
That telling the truth is sin is false.
Your view is illogical to say the least. Sin is the transgression of the law. Telling the truth is obedience to the law and therefore cannot be sin.
saturneptune
New Member
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God is pretty clear. Without the Lord, we can do nothing but sin. It is all a matter of degree. We set up our own standards and say person A is better than person B. God's standards are our only true standard.
More error. Whether a man believes in God or not, God has set the standard, God has determined what is good and what is sin. God's word says that lying is a sin, and telling the truth is good. When someone tells the truth they have not sinned.
Saying that when an unsaved person tells the truth it is sin is not only unscriptural, it is totally illogical.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Why not stop with this prattle of yours?
No one has said or even hinted that telling the truth is a sin, accept of course, you.
God has determined all men not good no matter how you proof-text against revealed truth and rally for the exaltation and glory of man.
Baloney, FAL and SN both said that everything the unsaved do is sin, even when they obey God's commands. This is false, sin is the transgression of the law, it is disobedience. It doesn't matter whether you are saved or unsaved, disobedience to God is sin, obeying God's law is good.
I agree 100% that all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God, but that is a different issue.
Teaching that obeying God's law is sin is utterly ridiculous, it would render God's commands meaningless. Teaching that lying and telling the truth which are direct opposites are both sin (for the unsaved) is an illogical contradiction and cannot be true.
Fact is, this view teaches it is a sin to exist, as all men are born unable to willingly believe or obey God through no fault or choice of their own.
Don't rebuke me, rebuke those who say such foolish things.
preacher4truth
Active Member
You're taking them out of context and you know it. This is how you roll. No one says it is a sin to exist. No one said telling the truth is a sin. Only you come up with these bizarre unwarranted denouements.
Then you take it out on Saturneptune, by quoting him, and reprimand him for something he never came close to saying?
My censuring of you here is warranted. Keep things in context without rushing to invalid and illogical conclusions, then blaming these false conclusions on an innocent party.
PFT....please point out where Winman is coming(rushing) to a invalid,false,and illogical conclusion.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Did saturneptune say telling the truth is a sin as winman alleged and directed at him?
No.
I think it's rather plain to see what saturn said, and didn't say, don't you? You need help to see this?
Neither have freeatlast nor have others said this. He's taken them and others out of context.
saturneptune
New Member
You totally miss the point, speaking of error. The title of the thread is the freedom not to sin, not to sin constantly. The point is they are going to sin at some rate or every now and then. No one said that "saying that an unsaved person tells the truth it is sin." It is not a sin when he eats an ice cream cone. The point of the thread is freedom not to sin, not that sin is rampant with every thought, deed, and action. You should really read the thread before responding.
Again, baloney. SN said;
FAL said;
Both of these statements are false. Telling the truth is good whether you are saved or unsaved, it is obeying God's law.
FAL's statement is false because it redefines the scriptural definition of sin. Sin is disobedience, it is the transgression of the law.
Is this the kind of thing your preacher tells the unsaved when they come in? Do you tell them that telling the truth is sin? Good luck getting them to take you seriously and listen to you.
preacher4truth
Active Member
You're still taking them out of context, and the entire OP for that matter.
Then you took it out on saturneptune.
I did not take their words out of context, they were both saying that EVERYTHING the unsaved person does is sin.
I would agree you can do something seemingly good with the wrong attitude, Cain gave a sacrifice of the fruit of the ground. He was trying to impress God with his good works. But it was sin because it was disobedience, the offering had to be a blood sacrifice as Abel gave.
But when unsaved people tell the truth in day to day conversation, that is not sin. The scriptures say when the Gentiles who have not the law do by nature those things contained in the law, they show the law written on their hearts. All men know by nature that telling the truth is good, and lying is wrong.
You don't have to be 100% evil to be a sinner and come short of the glory of God. If you sin just ONCE in your life you are a sinner, and must pay the penalty which is death.
The scriptural "mechanics" of our sin:
James 1
It is not so much the particular sin itself that condemns us but that we love the darkness of sin:
John 3
James 1
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
It is not so much the particular sin itself that condemns us but that we love the darkness of sin:
John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Birds fly, no one forces them, they love to fly, I think winman said it, it's what they do.
Men sin, it's what we do.
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Obviously those who are doing truth and come to the light are the "elect" who have their origin out of fallen mankind.
HankD
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Birds fly, no one forces them, they love to fly, I think winman said it, it's what they do.
Men sin, it's what we do.
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Obviously those who are doing truth and come to the light are the "elect" who have their origin out of fallen mankind.
HankD
freeatlast
New Member
I think you are miss-understanding what I am saying. Perhaps it is because I used the word sin. So let me try and make it more clear. First some verses;
Romans 3:10-18 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." 13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS"; 14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS"; 15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, 16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, 17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN." 18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."
Romans 3:23 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Genesis 6:5 5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Isaiah 64:6 6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Ephesians 2:1-3 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Matthew 7:22-23 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
It is true that the lost can do good deeds. They can legally obey the law of God. There is no doubt that God would prefer someone who is lost to be of a mind set of doing good while living on earth rather then someone who is lost doing evil.
The problem is that even the righteous deeds done by the lost are still filthy rags in the eyes of God. The reason is they did the good out of the wrong motives. They not only did not do good because of not having a relationship with God and not seeking to please Him but they did it for reasons of their own and selfish reasoning. That makes their good deeds unrighteousness. Only that which is done for the Lord will stand. Even a Christian can do a good deed on the surface for a selfish reason. That deed will get no credit for him as it was done in an unrighteous manner. Jesus said even if you give a glass of water in my name you will not lose your reward. Notice it has to be given in His name. Doing good deeds for any reason other then for the Lord is not righteousness and the lost cannot do anything in the name of Jesus.
So everything that a lost person does is unrighteous towards God as even the good they do is not done for God.
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
That passage is not saying that they never did a good deed. It is saying that everyone mentioned was doing what they did for their own purpose, even any so called good.
This is what God sees in a lost person. There is nothing about them to commend them to God even their good deeds. Their every deed is done for unrighteous reasons because it is not done for God. Even their good is unrighteousness.
ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
So in keeping with the OP only the saved are free to not sin. While the lost are free to obey the letter it does not make their deed righteousness as they have no ability to obey in spirit. THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD. Only that which is done in spirit and truth will be accepted by God as being righteous. Their every deed is seen as unrighteousness because it cannot be done unto God as it was done for the wrong motive.
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FAL, When the scriptures say there is none that doeth good, it does not mean that everything a man does is sin. Telling the truth is good whether you are saved or unsaved. This verse is speaking of being perfectly righteous, 100% good. If you sin just ONE time in your life, then you have "come short" of the glory of God, because God is 100% HOLY.
Jesus himself said evil men can do good things.
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him.
Jesus said here that we being evil know how (ability) to give "good" gifts. He is directly comparing these good gifts to the good things God will give us if we ask him.
Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
How do you get around this verse? Jesus said his hearers do good, he said those to whom they do good do good, and he said sinners do the same, that is, GOOD.
You have to rightly divide the word. You can't look at only a few scriptures and form doctrine, you have to look at all scripture.
No man is good in the sense of sinless perfection, but Jesus himself said evil sinners can do good.
Jesus himself said evil men can do good things.
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him.
Jesus said here that we being evil know how (ability) to give "good" gifts. He is directly comparing these good gifts to the good things God will give us if we ask him.
Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
How do you get around this verse? Jesus said his hearers do good, he said those to whom they do good do good, and he said sinners do the same, that is, GOOD.
You have to rightly divide the word. You can't look at only a few scriptures and form doctrine, you have to look at all scripture.
No man is good in the sense of sinless perfection, but Jesus himself said evil sinners can do good.
freeatlast
New Member
Your missing the point. Just because it is good towards men does not mean it is not sin. Only that which is done in the name of the Lord is righteousness. Everything else is done from a sinful heart. The man who is lost giving to his children is not giving because he has a good heart. Either the heart is evil or it is good. Everything the lost does even their righteous deeds are as filthy rags to God. They get no credit for doing any righteousness as righteousness is impossible for a lost person, even if they do what we might call good deeds. A good deed does not make a righteous deed and if it is not a righteous deed it is unrighteousness.
It is you missing the point. Jesus himself said sinners do good. Your argument is not with me, it is with Jesus. Jesus does not make mistakes or make misleading statements.
freeatlast
New Member
Doing a good deed does not make it righteousness. No lost person can be righteous even for a moment in time. They are always unrighteous even in the mist of doing what we call a good deed. Nothing they do even that which we call good will be seen by God as righteousness on their part because it was not done in the name of the Lord.
I agree that no unsaved person is righteous, to be righteous means to be 100% without sin. This is why Jesus told the young rich ruler there is none good but God.
But that does not mean that sinners cannot do true good, Jesus said they can.
You are confusing doing good with being righteous. You could do good all your life, but if you sin just one time you are a sinner and not righteous. And you must pay the penalty for that one sin, which is death.
If I tell the truth, is that evil? No, it is good, it is obeying God's command. Does that make me righteous? No, because I don't always do good, I have sinned many times.
I don't understand why I am having to explain this. Sin is breaking the law, it is disobedience, it is transgression of the law. Telling the truth is not sin, God tells us to tell the truth.
No wonder folks here cannot agree, how can you reason with someone who holds illogical views?