Are the unsaved still subject to the Old Testament laws

[JonC]

Well I understand Christ's commandments, John 14:15 to be grace. To believe in Him and love our fellow believers because we believe in Him, 1John 3:23, 1 John 5:1. John 12:49-50. 1 John 5:9-13.

I agree with you.

 

[Yeshua1]

Good point.

What about the 10 commandments? They are still preached today, they were given to the Israelites. Granted the 10 commandments are common sense Laws.

All of us are still under the Moral law of God, as expressed to us in the 10 Commandments!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Well I understand Christ's commandments, John 14:15 to be grace. To believe in Him and love our fellow believers because we believe in Him, 1 John 3:23, 1 John 5:1. John 12:49-50. 1 John 5:9-13.

The Decalogue is gracious. It begins, 'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the land of bondage.' It is God's rules for His redeemed people. And when you come to understand the Commandments, they are all based on love; loving God and loving one's neighbour. We are indeed to love our fellow believers, but "....If you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you more than others?" (Matthew 5:46-47).

Also,
'Pursue.....holiness, without which no man will see the Lord' (Hebrews 12:14).
But.....but..... Christ's commandments are grace!
'Pursue.....holiness, without which no man will see the Lord.'
But......but......we're not under the law any more!
'Pursue.....holiness, without which no man will see the Lord.'
But.....but......this is works religion!
'Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived!' (1 Corinthians 6:9).

 

[Aaron]

What does Jesus save us from?

Our sins.

How do we know sin?

The Law.

The Law was given to all of us. There is no people under the sun for whom it was right to worship other gods, to make images of those gods to worship, to take the name of God in vain, to work 7 days (or not work 6) to dishonor parents, to murder, commit adultery, steal, lie or covet that which belongs to another.

It is the violation of these things that the wrath of God is coming upon the earth.

 

[Aaron]

Question: are the ones walking here on earth with us, who aren’t saved, still subject to the laws in the OT? Being that Christ Jesus fulfilled the law and provided us with the new covenant, but do you have to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior to be liberated from the laws of old?

They are all still under the curse pronounced upon them by the law for their disobedience. Yes.

 

[asterisktom]

The Lord Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28 etc.), which is why it is now called the Lord's Day.

Again, has the Lord Jesus fallen out with His Father, and abolished His commandments?
How do we love our neighbours as ourselves? By honouring our parents, not, killing or hating them, not stealing from them, not bearing false witness against them and not coveting what belongs to them.
And how do we love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength? By placing nothing in priority before Him, by not making anything an idol, by not misusing His name, and by honouring Him especially in one day in seven Simple!

Christians are not under the law as something that condemns us, but the Moral Law, epitomized in the Decalogue, is our rule of life. We keep it, not in order to be saved, but because we are saved. 'Not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ' (1 Corinthians 9:21).

Here is a good web site that pretty much says what I would concerning just what Lord of the Sabbath means

What does it mean that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath? | GotQuestions.org

BTW this is not a preterist site. It is just one of several that I can pull up that gives a proper perspective on this Sabbath issue.

I plan to come back to this topic later.

 

[asterisktom]

The Ten Commandments the mind and the will of God. They apply to all people at all times.
God the Father and God the Son have not fallen out. They do not each have a different set of commandments for us. When the Lord Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments," He was referring to the Decalogue.

Did the Son have a "falling out" with His Father when He went against the Law's commandment to stone the adulterous woman? Lev. 20.10 and John 8

No, He superseded the Old Covenant. In the same way He superseded the Sabbath Commandment. There is a difference between the Sabbath commandment and the other nine commandments. The Holy Spirit who now indwells believers is taught not to be adulterous - and is taught much greater insight of what adultery is, physical and spiritual. Likewise the other eight commandments are enlarged upon in the New Testament. For instance, murder is now shown to be even hating your brother."Whoever hates his brother is a murderer" 1 John 3.15

But the Sabbath commandment has no such enlargement. In fact it is not even taught in the New Covenant.

The Decalogue is specifically shown to be for Israel.

"And the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments." Exodus 34.27 - 28

Who was the Covenant with, according to this passage? Moses and Israel.

Something else, there is no Biblical reason to imagine a threefold distinction in commandments. This is a favorite of Puritans and many Reformed leaders but it has no basis in Scripture. I think it only goes as far back as Thomas Aquinas.

James said that if one offends in one point of the Law he is guilty of all. He makes no distinction between types of commandments.

Consider the Old Testament death penalty.

Adultery - death.
Talking back to Mom and Dad - death.
Picking up sticks on the Sabbath - DEATH!

It is ironic that many of those who are most in favor of the Sabbath Commandment are themselves violators of it. They do this, first of all, by changing the day. The very name, Sabbath, should have been a safeguard against such an alteration.

There is no injunction, like I wrote earlier, to have a "Christian Sabbath". There are people in the Old Testament who tried to alter the commandments of God. It did not go well for them.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Question: are the ones walking here on earth with us, who aren’t saved, still subject to the laws in the OT?

The OT Scriptures cover a lot of ground, beginning from the very beginning. God's moral standard, God's moral law has always been in effect. Violations of it are called sins.

An indicator of this, as many thinkers have observed, is that, though they differ in the details, mankind has had similar moral standards throughout history, throughout the world.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Question: are the ones walking here on earth with us, who aren’t saved, still subject to the laws in the OT? Being that Christ Jesus fulfilled the law and provided us with the new covenant, but do you have to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior to be liberated from the laws of old?

God has always had a moral law to which man is accountable. The Flood is a graphic illustration of the consequences of disobeying that law. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is a graphic illustration of the consequences of disobeying that law. The instructions to Israel in how to deal with the inhabitants when taking possession of the Promised Land are graphic illustrations of the consequences of disobeying that law.

The OT prophets do not just address the sins of Israel but of other nations as well, and speak of serious consequences of those sins. In Romans 1, Paul explains in some detail violations of the moral law and their serious consequences. When reminding Christians of their past, whether Jew or Gentile, Paul makes it clear that they were accountable to God's moral law before they believed in Christ.

While God's people have always had certain additional responsibilities, e.g., proclaiming God's word and standards, and Christians are under a completely New Covenant that comes with power, God's moral law is still in effect for mankind. Christians should be at the forefront in reminding people of this, with the additional charge of proclaiming the Good News of Jesus Christ.

 

[37818]

The Decalogue is gracious. It begins, 'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the land of bondage.' It is God's rules for His redeemed people. And when you come to understand the Commandments, they are all based on love; loving God and loving one's neighbour. We are indeed to love our fellow believers, but "....If you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you more than others?" (Matthew 5:46-47).

Also,
'Pursue.....holiness, without which no man will see the Lord' (Hebrews 12:14).
But.....but..... Christ's commandments are grace!
'Pursue.....holiness, without which no man will see the Lord.'
But......but......we're not under the law any more!
'Pursue.....holiness, without which no man will see the Lord.'
But.....but......this is works religion!
'Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived!' (1 Corinthians 6:9).

Friend,
What is your basis to suppose when Jesus said, "my commandments," in the account in John 14:15, He was referring to Exodus 20:1-17? Please give an explanation how you came to that conclusion.

 

[Yeshua1]

The 10 commandments were only for the Jews

the Moral law of God described in them are still for all mankind...

 

[Yeshua1]

No, we are not subject to the Law. Scripture is clear that the Law (to include the Ten Commandments) were given to a specific group of people at a specific time in history.

We are not under the Ten Commandments. Christ made this clear, IMHO, when He expounded on the superficial to the heart. Also, when asked of the greatest command Christ did not go to the Ten Commandments. They are prescriptive (they are the criteria for a righteous standing under a covenant made with Israel).

If you love God then you will obey His commandments. This is descriptive, not prescriptive. This was the problem with the Jews and, unfortunately, a problem with many Christians today. They read the passage as prescriptive of what people who love God must do rather than descriptive of one who loves God.

We are still under obligation to keep the Moral law expressed to us in those 10 Commandments...

 

[asterisktom]

the Moral law of God described in them are still for all mankind...

Well, yes, the moral law of God is all repeated and enlarged in the New Testament as I explained in my post. But the Sabbath commandment had a restricted application to the Jews. We are under no obligation to keep the Sabbath. We never did.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, yes, the moral law of God is all repeated and enlarged in the New Testament as I explained in my post. But the Sabbath commandment had a restricted application to the Jews. We are under no obligation to keep the Sabbath. We never did.

We still are commanded to observe a day or worship, as for us now Sunday!

 

[Yeshua1]

Did the Son have a "falling out" with His Father when He went against the Law's commandment to stone the adulterous woman? Lev. 20.10 and John 8

No, He superseded the Old Covenant. In the same way He superseded the Sabbath Commandment. There is a difference between the Sabbath commandment and the other nine commandments. The Holy Spirit who now indwells believers is taught not to be adulterous - and is taught much greater insight of what adultery is, physical and spiritual. Likewise the other eight commandments are enlarged upon in the New Testament. For instance, murder is now shown to be even hating your brother."Whoever hates his brother is a murderer" 1 John 3.15

But the Sabbath commandment has no such enlargement. In fact it is not even taught in the New Covenant.

The Decalogue is specifically shown to be for Israel.

"And the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments." Exodus 34.27 - 28

Who was the Covenant with, according to this passage? Moses and Israel.

Something else, there is no Biblical reason to imagine a threefold distinction in commandments. This is a favorite of Puritans and many Reformed leaders but it has no basis in Scripture. I think it only goes as far back as Thomas Aquinas.

James said that if one offends in one point of the Law he is guilty of all. He makes no distinction between types of commandments.

Consider the Old Testament death penalty.

Adultery - death.
Talking back to Mom and Dad - death.
Picking up sticks on the Sabbath - DEATH!

It is ironic that many of those who are most in favor of the Sabbath Commandment are themselves violators of it. They do this, first of all, by changing the day. The very name, Sabbath, should have been a safeguard against such an alteration.

There is no injunction, like I wrote earlier, to have a "Christian Sabbath". There are people in the Old Testament who tried to alter the commandments of God. It did not go well for them.

You keep mentioning the Sabbath, but only Baptists that advocate keeping that still would be 7th day Baptists, and do not think any of them post here!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Here is a good web site that pretty much says what I would concerning just what Lord of the Sabbath means

What does it mean that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath? | GotQuestions.org

I read the link and am in agreement with much of it, but not the last paragraph. Please do not think that I am unaware of the various arguments that surround the Decalogue in general and the sabbath / Lord's day in particular.

Did the Son have a "falling out" with His Father when He went against the Law's commandment to stone the adulterous woman? Lev. 20.10 and John 8

No, He superseded the Old Covenant. In the same way He superseded the Sabbath Commandment.

Our Lord did not supersede the 7th Commandment; what He did was to supersede the Mosaic Judicial Law.
Since you say that you were once Reformed in your theology, you should be acquainted with the three-fold division of the law so I won't address it in this post although I'm happy to do so later.

There is a difference between the Sabbath commandment and the other nine commandments. The Holy Spirit who now indwells believers is taught not to be adulterous - and is taught much greater insight of what adultery is, physical and spiritual. Likewise the other eight commandments are enlarged upon in the New Testament. For instance, murder is now shown to be even hating your brother."Whoever hates his brother is a murderer" 1 John 3.15

But the Sabbath commandment has no such enlargement. In fact it is not even taught in the New Covenant.

This is quite wrong. First of all, the Decalogue comes as a boxed set (Deuteronomy 6:22), all written by the very finger of God. The rest of the Mosaic laws were delivered to Moses, apparently via angels (Acts 7:53 etc.). Secondly, all the Commandments are commented upon by the Lord Jesus Mark 2:27 does not say that the 4th Commandment was made for man to do what he liked with, but that it was made for his benefit. Therefore He also has much to say about those Scribes and Pharisees who forbade healing and placed all sorts of other artificial restrictions upon the sabbath. The Lord Jesus gives His interpretation of the sabbath just as much as He does of the various other commandments. The sabbath / Lord's day is not an imposition by God, but a blessing. Read Isaiah 58:13-14, and then delight your self in the Lord by keeping the Lord's Day as a special day.
Thirdly, all ten of the Commandments appear either in Genesis or in Exodus 1-18, before the giving of the law. Specifically, the fourth Commandment is found in Genesis 2:1-3 (cf. Exodus 20:11) and Exodus 16. .

The Decalogue is specifically shown to be for Israel.

"And the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments." Exodus 34.27 - 28

Your closet dispensationalism is showing. See above. All the Decalogue is found before Exodus 20 and all commandments are commented upon by the Lord Jesus, many of them also by Paul. The moral law is God's special blessing for all His people. The New Covenant promise is that God will 'Put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God and they shall be My people' (Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:10).

Something else, there is no Biblical reason to imagine a threefold distinction in commandments. This is a favorite of Puritans and many Reformed leaders but it has no basis in Scripture. I think it only goes as far back as Thomas Aquinas.

The three-fold division of the law is found very clearly in Scripture. I will show this when I get some more time, but right now it's bed-time in England.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Friend,
What is your basis to suppose when Jesus said, "my commandments," in the account in John 14:15, He was referring to Exodus 20:1-17? Please give an explanation how you came to that conclusion.

Certainly.
First of all, the Ten Commandments are His commandments; He is the LORD. Why would He not be referencing them? Secondly, the 'commandments' of John 14:15 are plural' the 'new commandment' of John 13:34 is singular. It is an addition to the commandments, not a replacement for them.

Your problem, if I may say so, is that you seem to regard the Commandments as some sort of burden or imposition. They are quite the opposite. They represent the mind and the heart of God, and they are based upon love. The Christian has them written upon his heart (Hebrews 8:10); it is his delight to keep them (Psalms 40:8), and his sorrow when he fails to do so (Psalms 119:5; 1 John 1:9). May I suggest a prayerful reading of Psalm 119? 'With my whole heart I have sought You; Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments' (v.!0).

 

[JonC]

Certainly.
First of all, the Ten Commandments are His commandments; He is the LORD. Why would He not be referencing them? Secondly, the 'commandments' of John 14:15 are plural' the 'new commandment' of John 13:34 is singular. It is an addition to the commandments, not a replacement for them.

Your problem, if I may say so, is that you seem to regard the Commandments as some sort of burden or imposition. They are quite the opposite. They represent the mind and the heart of God, and they are based upon love. The Christian has them written upon his heart (Hebrews 8:10); it is his delight to keep them (Psalms 40:8), and his sorrow when he fails to do so (Psalms 119:5; 1 John 1:9). May I suggest a prayerful reading of Psalm 119? 'With my whole heart I have sought You; Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments' (v.!0).

The entire Law (including the "Ten Commandments") are His commandments.

The issue is not Who gave them but to whom they were given.

The difference, of course, is the Ten Commandments were given as a part of the Law which cannot be broken to Israel as a part of a covenant to those under that covenant. Obedience was to be righteous (in a right standing) under that covenant. It's purpose, however, was to magnify sin.

Christians are not under the Law (to include the Ten Commandments). We are under a "New Covenant". The Ten Commandments (and even the Law) are not useless but they are also not prescriptive.

If you love God you will obey His commandments. If you are of the Spirit you will bear such fruit. If you are in Christ you will walk in the light.

 

[JonC]

When dealing with a Pharisee lawyer in Matthew 22 Jesus did not go to the "Big Ten" but to Deuteronomy 6 and Leviticus 19 to give him the two greatest commandments. Jesus knew the Law could not be broken, as did the Pharisee lawyer. But perhaps the Pharisee lawyer expected one of the Big Ten in response. We have a lot of Pharisee lawyers in the Church.

Those two commands, not the Ten Commandments, are the link upon which the whole Law depends. I do not believe it a mistake that being spiritually alive is described as having God's Spirit in us, and that we are to be holy because God is holy. These seem to go together. If you love God you will obey God because this is the Spirit of God in you.

The Law is not destroyed but fulfilled in Christ. It is a stark misunderstanding of Scripture to separate the Ten Commandments from the Law as if it embodies God's "moral code" when in fact every command is an expression of God's nature (not just the Ten Commandments) but for those under those commands.

 

[37818]

Certainly.
First of all, the Ten Commandments are His commandments; He is the LORD. Why would He not be referencing them? Secondly, the 'commandments' of John 14:15 are plural' the 'new commandment' of John 13:34 is singular. It is an addition to the commandments, not a replacement for them.

Your problem, if I may say so, is that you seem to regard the Commandments as some sort of burden or imposition. They are quite the opposite. They represent the mind and the heart of God, and they are based upon love. The Christian has them written upon his heart (Hebrews 8:10); it is his delight to keep them (Psalms 40:8), and his sorrow when he fails to do so (Psalms 119:5; 1 John 1:9). May I suggest a prayerful reading of Psalm 119? 'With my whole heart I have sought You; Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments' (v.!0).

You only repeated your misconceptions of what you already had supposed Jesus meant in John 14:15. So why do you reject 1 John 3:23 explanation? Did the Apostle abuse the term commandment?

BTW, the seventh day Sabbath has not been changed.