are their ANY Historical premillinualists here On BB?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Until the Dispensational Judaizers arrived on the scene in the 19th century it probably wasn't much of a sticking point.

your going to have to explain that commentary! Are you saying those who politically & militarily support Israels policies are a deterrent to Americans? Im not a Dispy or a Covenant supporter yet I always have had a proclivity to support Israels right to exist....as well as Polands & the Czech Republic & Slovakia. These countries serve as a bulkwork against Soviet & Arab domination.

 

[kyredneck]

We're off topic.

Google Genesis 12:3 and the Christian Zionist

 

[Jerome]

To reiterate, so-called "historic premillennialists" use "historic" to distinguish themselves from dispensational premillennialists. It is not at all referring to historicism.

KY, thank you for directing me to Kim Riddlebarger in post 14. Here Riddlebarger identifies the OP group as futurist rather than historicist (or preterist or idealist):

dispensationalists are thoroughgoing futurists, while historic premillennialists and progressive dispensationalists tend to be moderate futurists.

. . . .

There are approaches to the Book of Revelation other than preterism or futurism, however. One approach is the so-called historicist school

. . . .

[Another is idealism]

 

[kyredneck]

Think about it Jerome, doesn't matter whether you're dispy, historicist, or historic, if you've got premillennial in your title then that automatically puts you in the futurist category......

 

[convicted1]

Yes, but they don't make the distinction between the Church and physical Israel like the dispies do. Historic premils see both as ONE people of God in Christ. Dispies put the Jew on the pedestal, they have the preeminance, Gentiles will serve Jews after this 'paragraph of the Church Age' (I cringe to say that) is over.

That is why I could never be in the historic premill camp. I believe that when Jesus returns, He will gather us and take us home to heaven, and the lost will be cast into the LoF. This earth will melt with fervent heat, and the heavens will roll up like a giant scroll, and pass away with a great noise.

 

[kyredneck]

And passages such as 1 Cor 15:23,24 seem to support that....

 

[DaChaser1]

Yes, but they don't make the distinction between the Church and physical Israel like the dispies do. Historic premils see both as ONE people of God in Christ. Dispies put the Jew on the pedestal, they have the preeminance, Gentiles will serve Jews after this 'paragraph of the Church Age' (I cringe to say that) is over.

You do know that Dispy hold that its during the reign of jesus as the Messiah physical here upon the earth, that the jewish nation/peoples will have him as their King directly, so they would be receiving same blessing as Him as their King as gentiles, as ALL will have Him as the messiah King!

Saved peoples also will be gloried and in heavenly jeruasalem at this time!

 

[DaChaser1]

"While often popularly confused with "dispensational premillennialism" with but a mere disagreement as to the timing of the "rapture," historic premillennialism is, in actuality, a completely different eschatological system, largely rejecting the whole dispensational understanding of redemptive history."

http://www.fivesolas.com/esc_chrt.htm

Dispensational Premillennialism:

a. Dispensationalists argue for the necessity of the literal interpretation of all of the prophetic portions of Scripture. Charles Ryrie makes this point very clearly:

When the principles of literal interpretation both in regard to general and special hermeneutics are followed, the result the premillennial system of doctrine... If one interprets literally, he arrives at the premillennial system.
This means that all promises made to David and Abraham under the Old Covenant are to be literally fulfilled in the future millennial age.

b. Dispensationalists insist that God has two redemptive plans, one for national Israel, and one for Gentiles during the "church age." This presupposition forms the basis for the dispensational hermeneutic. As John Walvoord states regarding the dispensational hermeneutic, "Pretribulationism distinguishes clearly between Israel and the church and their respective programs."c. There is a "rapture" of believers when Jesus Christ secretly returns to earth before the seven year tribulation period begins (the seventieth week of Daniel, cf. Daniel 9:24-27). Believers do not experience the persecution of the Anti-Christ who rises to prominence during this "tribulation period." The Biblical data dealing with the time of tribulation is referring to unbelieving Israel, not the church. Therefore, church age, or the "age of grace," is to be seen as that period of time in which God is dealing with Gentiles prior to the coming of the kingdom of God during the millennium.

d. The visible and physical second coming of Christ occurs after the great tribulation. Those who are converted to Christ during the tribulation, including Jews (the 144,000) who turn to Christ, go on into the millennium to re-populate the earth. Glorified believers rule with Christ during his future reign.

e. Jesus came to earth bringing with him an "offer" of the kingdom to the Jews, who rejected him. God then turned to dealing with the Gentiles -- thus, the church age is a parenthesis of sorts. The rapture is the next event to occur in Biblical prophecy. The signs of the end of the age (i.e., the birth of the nation of Israel, the revival of the Roman empire predicted in Daniel as seen through the emergence of the EEC [common market], the impending Russian-Arab invasion of Israel, etc.) all point to the immediacy of the secret return of Christ for his church. Antichrist is awaiting his revelation once the believing church is removed.

f. The millennium is marked by a return to Old Testament temple worship and sacrifice to commemorate the sacrifice of Christ. At the end of the millennium, the "great white throne" judgement occurs, and Satan and all unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire. There is the creation of a new heaven and earth.


Historic Premillennialism:

a. While often popularly confused with "dispensational premillennialism" with but a mere disagreement as to the timing of the "rapture," ]historic premillennialism is, in actuality, a completely different eschatological system, largely rejecting the whole dispensational understanding of redemptive history.

b. The basic features of historic premillennialism are as follows. When Jesus began his public ministry the kingdom of God was manifest through His ministry. Upon His ascension into heaven and the "Gift of the Spirit" at Pentecost, the kingdom is present through the Spirit, until the end of the age, which is marked by the return of Christ to the earth in judgement. During the period immediately preceding the return of Christ, there is great apostasy and tribulation.

C. After the return of Christ, there will be a period of 1000 years (the millennium separating the "first" resurrection from the "second" resurrection. Satan will be bound, and the kingdom will consummated, that is, made visible during this period.

d. At the end of the millennial period, Satan will be loosed and there will be a massive rebellion (of "Gog and Magog"), immediately preceding the "second" resurrection or final judgement. After this, there will be the creation of a new Heaven and Earth.

Also have to figure in the branch of Dispy known as being "progressive", as they tend to see JUST one peoples of God, not as clear distinction between isreal/Church as "classic" Dispy did have!

 

[seekingthetruth]

That is why I could never be in the historic premill camp. I believe that when Jesus returns, He will gather us and take us home to heaven, and the lost will be cast into the LoF. This earth will melt with fervent heat, and the heavens will roll up like a giant scroll, and pass away with a great noise.

Then how do you explain the "new heaven and the new earth"?

And what about the Earth being 'restored' like unto the Garden of Eden?

And what about the "New Jeruselum"?

I believe that the Bible teaches us that God's will in the beginning....Genesis 1....will be fulfilled. He intended to fellowship with, and preside over man on Earth, but man messed it up. After the final battle, when Satan is locked up forever, I believe that man will still live on the Earth, and that the Earth will be restored as it was when Adam and Eve were here. And, I believe that the saints...us who are Christians, will reside in the "New Jeruselum" which will also be here on the Earth.

God will eventually have His paradise, and will dwell with man on Earth. Earth will be "restored", not destroyed.

Would you like to see the many scriptures that back up my beliefs?

John

 

[preachinjesus]

it's always interesting reading a thread around here and realizing that few people replying actually know what they're talking about.

As someone who is a (informed) historical premillenialist, let me begin by stating that part of my interpretive matrix is acknowledged utlization of progressive dispensationalism (though I don't think it matters as much as others.) The Church and Israel are two different entites, though obliging some of the same promises. One of the key aspects is to make the difference between spiritual Israel and political Israel. The two are separate.

That said, the historical premillenialist position (rightly noted to be chiliast) is a futurist eschatology that denies a pre-Tribulation rapture of the Church, though the Church is "raptured" prior at the Second Coming of Christ which ushers in the millenial kingdom. There are many variations within the camp.

For instance: I don't accept a seven year Tribulation, a singular anti-Christ, and take much of Revelation to be symbolism. Others disagree with me, I'm okay with that.

So, let's not get outside of what historic premillenialism actually posits theologically. I hope this helps.

 

[DaChaser1]

it's always interesting reading a thread around here and realizing that few people replying actually know what they're talking about.

As someone who is a (informed) historical premillenialist, let me begin by stating that part of my interpretive matrix is acknowledged utlization of progressive dispensationalism (though I don't think it matters as much as others.) The Church and Israel are two different entites, though obliging some of the same promises. One of the key aspects is to make the difference between spiritual Israel and political Israel. The two are separate.

That said, the historical premillenialist position (rightly noted to be chiliast) is a futurist eschatology that denies a pre-Tribulation rapture of the Church, though the Church is "raptured" prior at the Second Coming of Christ which ushers in the millenial kingdom. There are many variations within the camp.

For instance: I don't accept a seven year Tribulation, a singular anti-Christ, and take much of Revelation to be symbolism. Others disagree with me, I'm okay with that.

So, let's not get outside of what historic premillenialism actually posits theologically. I hope this helps.

You would STILL see that there are plans for both the jews in the Church Age, and for isreal as a nation at end of this Age, correct?

Would still see Jesus second coming ushering in His 1000 yr reign upon earth?

Would you hold to a great tribualtion at end of this era?

 

[preachinjesus]

You would STILL see that there are plans for both the jews in the Church Age, and for isreal as a nation at end of this Age, correct?

So long as they accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior...yes, there are plans for Jewish people.

The Nation of Israel (political) has no special place in the End Times work.

Would still see Jesus second coming ushering in His 1000 yr reign upon earth?

That's what I said above.

Would you hold to a great tribualtion at end of this era?

There is no definite span of time which would be considered "great tribulation" at any era. (BTW, again notice my progressive dispensational framework as it relates to the notion of differing "dispensations" or "eras")

 

[Tom Butler]

Then how do you explain the "new heaven and the new earth"?

And what about the Earth being 'restored' like unto the Garden of Eden?

And what about the "New Jeruselum"?

I believe that the Bible teaches us that God's will in the beginning....Genesis 1....will be fulfilled. He intended to fellowship with, and preside over man on Earth, but man messed it up. After the final battle, when Satan is locked up forever, I believe that man will still live on the Earth, and that the Earth will be restored as it was when Adam and Eve were here. And, I believe that the saints...us who are Christians, will reside in the "New Jeruselum" which will also be here on the Earth.

God will eventually have His paradise, and will dwell with man on Earth. Earth will be "restored", not destroyed.

Would you like to see the many scriptures that back up my beliefs?

John

John, this is how I see it, too. I wouldn't build a doctrine around this one verse, but I think it tells us something:
Rev 21:3

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God

Notice that it didn't say the dwelling place of men is with God. I may be making too much of this verse, but to me it means that the present earth will be destroyed, then restored, and this will be our eternal dwelling place.

 

[seekingthetruth]

John, this is how I see it, too. I wouldn't build a doctrine around this one verse, but I think it tells us something:
Rev 21:3

Notice that it didn't say the dwelling place of men is with God. I may be making too much of this verse, but to me it means that the present earth will be destroyed, then restored, and this will be our eternal dwelling place.

i do agree with you as far as it being destroyed as we know it. The Earth we know will be gone, but it will be restored, not blown up, contrary to popular belief.

John

 

[kyredneck]

How Does Historic Premillennialism Differ from Dispensational Premillennialism?

"There are three major beliefs that I believe separate HP from all forms of DP:

First, historic premillennialists believe in New Testament priority in which the New Testament interprets/reinterprets the OT. As the leading HP proponent, George Ladd has stated:

The Old Testament must be interpreted by the New Testament. In principle it is quite possible that the prophecies addressed originally to literal Israel describing physical blessings have their fulfillment exclusively in the spiritual blessings enjoyed by the church. It is also possible that the Old Testament expectation of a kingdom on earth could be reinterpreted by the New Testament altogether of blessings in the spiritual realm.[1]

No dispensationalist would affirm this statement of Ladd since all dispensationalists reject the hermeneutic of “reinterpretation” and affirm that the meaning of all passages in the Bible is found in the authorial intent of all the Bible authors, including those of the OT. Dispensationalists reject the hermeneutic of reinterpretation because they don’t believe that New Testament passages override or transcend the meaning of earlier passages of Scripture.

Second, historic premillennialists believe the church is the new Israel. Ladd asserted that the church is now the new “spiritual Israel.”[2] Millard Erickson, too, holds that the church is the new Israel: “To sum up then: the church is the new Israel. It occupies the place in the new covenant that Israel occupied in the old.” [3]

Dispensationalists, on the other hand, do not see the church as replacing or fulfilling national Israel. They assert that all references to “Israel” in the New Testament are references to ethnic Jews or believing ethnic Jews (see Gal. 6:16).

Third, unlike dispensationalists, historic premillennialists do not believe in a future restoration of national Israel. Historic premillennialists like George Ladd have affirmed a salvation of ethnic Israel but this salvation is viewed as incorporation into the Church. This salvation is different from the concept of restoration in which Israel is saved as a national entity with a role to play to other nations in the future. Thus, historic premillennialists often believe in a salvation of Israel but not a restoration of national Israel.

Dispensationalists, on the other hand, believe in both a salvation and restoration of national Israel. Israel is saved and then restored to a position of prominence and service to the other nations on the earth. The coming millennium is also a time when God will fulfill all aspects of the Abrahamic, Davidic, and New covenants with Israel and the nations."

 

[kyredneck]

"...... the early church father Justin Martyr (A.D. 100-165), a premillennialist and Gentile, wrote of Christianity: "Even we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race."[10] This is a clear denial of the Israel/Church dichotomy so important to Dispensationalism."

http://www.christianciv.com/eschatology_bs_Sect1.htm

 

[DaChaser1]

How Does Historic Premillennialism Differ from Dispensational Premillennialism?

"There are three major beliefs that I believe separate HP from all forms of DP:

First, historic premillennialists believe in New Testament priority in which the New Testament interprets/reinterprets the OT. As the leading HP proponent, George Ladd has stated:

The Old Testament must be interpreted by the New Testament. In principle it is quite possible that the prophecies addressed originally to literal Israel describing physical blessings have their fulfillment exclusively in the spiritual blessings enjoyed by the church. It is also possible that the Old Testament expectation of a kingdom on earth could be reinterpreted by the New Testament altogether of blessings in the spiritual realm.[1]

No dispensationalist would affirm this statement of Ladd since all dispensationalists reject the hermeneutic of “reinterpretation” and affirm that the meaning of all passages in the Bible is found in the authorial intent of all the Bible authors, including those of the OT. Dispensationalists reject the hermeneutic of reinterpretation because they don’t believe that New Testament passages override or transcend the meaning of earlier passages of Scripture.

Second, historic premillennialists believe the church is the new Israel. Ladd asserted that the church is now the new “spiritual Israel.”[2] Millard Erickson, too, holds that the church is the new Israel: “To sum up then: the church is the new Israel. It occupies the place in the new covenant that Israel occupied in the old.” [3]

Dispensationalists, on the other hand, do not see the church as replacing or fulfilling national Israel. They assert that all references to “Israel” in the New Testament are references to ethnic Jews or believing ethnic Jews (see Gal. 6:16).

Third, unlike dispensationalists, historic premillennialists do not believe in a future restoration of national Israel. Historic premillennialists like George Ladd have affirmed a salvation of ethnic Israel but this salvation is viewed as incorporation into the Church. This salvation is different from the concept of restoration in which Israel is saved as a national entity with a role to play to other nations in the future. Thus, historic premillennialists often believe in a salvation of Israel but not a restoration of national Israel.

Dispensationalists, on the other hand, believe in both a salvation and restoration of national Israel. Israel is saved and then restored to a position of prominence and service to the other nations on the earth. The coming millennium is also a time when God will fulfill all aspects of the Abrahamic, Davidic, and New covenants with Israel and the nations."

Do they still hold to jesus literally having a second coming to earth and then setting up a 1000 reign on earth as Dispy would?

Would TAHT bekief be the difference between them and how Covenant theology see things?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Youse learnin me!:thumbs:

 

[kyredneck]

Then how do you explain the "new heaven and the new earth"?....

And I will break the pride of your power: and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass; Lev 26:19

And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Dt 28:23

Do you believe the disobedient Jews of today live in a literal world of a literal heaven and earth of literal brass and iron?

What hinders you from seeing that if one is in Christ that one is a new creature of the new heaven and earth of the new covenant?

 

[kyredneck]

Do they still hold to jesus literally having a second coming to earth and then setting up a 1000 reign on earth as Dispy would?

Would TAHT bekief be the difference between them and how Covenant theology see things?

I don't know.

Perhaps someone like Iconoclast who is up on CT can step in and enlighten you, or, you can always google it. It's right at your fingertips.