Originally posted by Bro. James Reed:
The point is that it is wrong for a group of people, or anyone other than the preacher, to decide for that preacher to go preach somewhere.
The preacher or God decides? I thought we'd concluded that it was God who called men to preach?
Consider the frequent case in this country where a particular preacher will be out of town and unable to keep an appointment to preach. What does he do? He calls another preacher he knows and asks him to fill in for him. Sometimes the congregation makes the request. Sometimes the preacher is just passing through and gets asked on the spur of the moment because he's there. The preacher called responds on the basis of that request. Did God facilitate this communication? We hope so! It sure seems to involve the asking and accepting of persons doesn't it?
So if someone asks and a preacher accepts does that not make it the decision of the preacher in as much as he was not commanded by man to go and preach?
That is what the split was about, missionary boards sending out preachers to places they feel the preacher needs to go, rather than the preacher deciding where he is led to go. I have no doubt that those who are in the PB Philippine movement today have a sincere desire to go and preach there.
What missionary board has sent Primitive Baptist preachers out to preach? Are we confusing missionary boards such as were involved in the split with an organization formed to support a specific mission effort called by God? Wasn't the organization established by the very same preacher or preachers who were called to preach in the first place? What then is wrong with this?
The problem of long ago seems to have been more about local churches not wanting some business based missionary board levying dues upon them and deciding where and how that money would be spent, who would be sent where, and even what the qualifications of the persons would or would not be. Those issues don't appear to be involved in the current mission work at all.
If individual churches wish to contribute to a specific mission effort because they believe it to be worthy of support in as much as it is God's work then how can other churches condemn such? Could it be that the shallow depth of our own pockets are a concern in this matter?
You're right, it is no different. But, the fact remains that if what is going on in the Philippines with certain people doing certain things, I won't go into details right now, were going on here in the US, our churches would be standing up against them just as we are now.
Then these things must be those you've mentioned herein. What other great evils are being committed by fellow Primitive Baptists in the Philippines, India, or Africa?
What we are standing for is what we believe the Bible teaches and what the history of the Primitive Baptist church relates to us, which we feel are both the same and the correct way to do things.
We find the way things are being done, ordaining elders a few days after baptism, having one or a few men oversee all of the churches and elders in the country, having seminars here in the States for ministers only, preaching the doctrine of Calvinism, teaching that Conditional Time Salvation is a heresy, taking alien baptism, and many other things, are not consistent with the Bible and what Primitive Baptists have stood for since the church began.
What is the basis of these accusations? Are these actions personally witnessed or even heard directly from someone who has witnessed them? Have they been discussed with those accused? Are they simply accepted third-hand, forth-hand, or more allegations passed along from preacher to preacher and church member to church member without benefit of examination or cross examination? Who defends those accused by such allegations?
According to the words of several who've actually been there with whom I've spoken the story is very different than what's often passed along.
The one elder who was ordained shortly after baptism was already an ordained elder who became convicted of the specific Primitive Baptist doctrine. Some involved have already acknowledged that in the early days of the mission work because of the excitement of bearing fruit of the labor that things were perhaps done more hastily than would have been if more consideration had been given to how they might be received by others distant from the work.
Never the less, this quick proceeding from baptism to ordination is not at all unusual as there have been many ministers in this country who've done likewise and were not subjected to a prolonged proving of their call before being ordained. Further, if the Holy Spirit desires a man can be quickly converted from the vilest of sinners to the greatest of witnesses or preachers, then it is done. Time is the element man applies to gain some degree of comfort with what God has already decided.
The seminars you mention, according to the sponsor, are open to anyone who desires to attend whether minister or not. The Bible relates stories of elders gathering together alone, with others, or with the Lord to study and learn. How is such a meeting today against the doctrine of the church?
Our belief is all that we have to go on. If we didn't believe God's word the way we do then we wouldn't have a problem going along with many of the things that are being done by some ministers. Our belief is what makes us who we are. If we didn't think our belief about these things was correct, and that our belief is in the word of God, then we would have no reason to have a church at all.
Our belief, and our belief that other peoples' interpretation of the Bible is incorrect, is what makes us Primitive Baptists, while others are Missionary Baptists, Catholic, Calvinist, Anglican, Presbyterian, Church of Christ, etc, etc.
When you write "our" aren't you actually referring to yourself, to your church, and to those you known and with whom you fellowship? I don't write this in a negative sense because I think we're all more comfortable with those closest to ourselves and tend to view ourselves as correct. Our conversations with oneanother tend to build up and affirm those beliefs. This can work for the glory of God if it's based in truth but it can also work against him if it's based in untruth.
We all have to decide what we'll believe and stand for it else there is nothing to believe and nothing to stand for. That is why I stand where I do in these matters.
However, others of the Primitive Baptist order do not agree completely with the specific positions taken and are directly involved in the mission work. Their faith in God, knowledge of God's word, and faithful practice of our faith and order is no less than any other.
Go and visit with them! Speak with them and question them gently about what you've been told. Listen to what they say and the spirit it which it is related to you. Go and see for youself what is happening. Ask the other brothers and sisters you do not know what they've seen. Ask God to show you the truth and then help you put an end to the rumors that work against His work.
On a side note, Bro. Patrick, I'm glad we're both at the stage where we can have a deep, meaningful conversation without yelling or "typing loudly" at each other. This way is much better, don't you think?
Bro. James
Certainly! It is always good to have a healthy debate without getting angry. We tend to listen more that way and that's usually a good thing.
Good comments Bro. James!
