Are there Catholics and Orthodox that are practicing and saved?

[Thinkingstuff]

This entire post begs the question: If faith alone saves, which it does, and I do have faith, though I may think that my works matter, is my faith invalidated by my belief that my works must accompany my faith?

If faith according to grace is all that saves, which it plainly is, then I would contend that there are many saved Catholics & Orthodox believers just as much as there are saved people of any Christian denomination who don't have ALL of their theology right... uh... like all of us...

Further, do you really believe that only Catholics believe that their works are a part of salvation? The only difference between them and the scores of Evangelicals who are addicted to doing good works, trying to please God out of a sense of guilt, shame, or whatever underlying reason, is that they honestly proclaim that they believe works are part of salvation; many Evangelicals say it with their deeds and attitudes, if not with their lips.

The first paragraph is entirely correct. That is the spirit of the question. The rest of the post is a good point. So then those who don't believe Catholics are saved believe not in faith alone but faith + "good" doctrine?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PilgrimPastor: This entire post begs the question: If faith alone saves, which it does, and I do have faith, though I may think that my works matter, is my faith invalidated by my belief that my works must accompany my faith?

HP: Excellent point.

PP: Further, do you really believe that only Catholics believe that their works are a part of salvation? The only difference between them and the scores of Evangelicals who are addicted to doing good works, trying to please God out of a sense of guilt, shame, or whatever underlying reason, is that they honestly proclaim that they believe works are part of salvation; many Evangelicals say it with their deeds and attitudes, if not with their lips.

HP: Works, including faith, trust, or belief, in their most primitive stages all start with the formation of intents. The will is involved in faith as well as in any work. If one is not forming intents consistent with good works I for one would believe Scripture clearly denotes the faith they might think they have as 'dead.' What is this about ‘addicted’ to good works?? Would that be something similar to being 'zealous' of good works?
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” Strange as it may seem to you, that sure sounds like a good thing to me. Would to God more professing Christians would be ‘addicted’ or ‘zealous’ to do good works.

If works are not a part of your relationship with God, does not Scripture say that your faith is in vain, “dead” as a matter of fact, being alone? Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Gup20]

Your "contention" was moot.
Your answers made no sense. They were an obvious twisting of the Scripture. For example, when the Philippian jailor believed, then he was baptized. Why then quote further Scripture? Are simply trying to twist the meaning to make Scripture mean something it does not? Do you want me to take that entire chapter (Acts 16) and go through it verse by verse to show how wrong you are?

DHK, I find myself once again agreeing with the content of your post, but despising your tone. Your response that it is "an obvious twisting of the scripture" is violent in it's hatred and I find it useful for nothing but insult. If it were obvious, then he - along with everyone else - would see it the way you do. Clearly, it is not obvious, so instead of trying to shame him for not sharing your point of view, perhaps it would be more useful to lay out your case from the scripture.

As I contend, there are hundreds of verses that demonstrate that salvation is by faith and faith alone. There are only a couple that one can use to prop up the heresy of baptismal regeneration, and even then they must twist the verse, take it out of context, and do some serious butchering of the verse.

DHK, you are entirely too contentious. You incite. Your words fall to the floor without meaning because of your contention. Your authority is moot because of your lack of love.

1Cr 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

Pro 26:21 [As] coals [are] to burning coals, and wood to fire; so [is] a contentious man to kindle strife.

1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
​

To those I say take warning:

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Yet all of your knowledge and wisdom counts as nothing because you don't have love.

Mat 21:16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

 

[Gup20]

Nonsense DHK. Context is everything. Your quotes were singeling out a verse rather than the entire context.

I disagree. I think DHK presented it consistently with it's context.

What is the point of Justifying man? Just for personal relationship with God? Yes, thats one part but is it all parts? We were created and saved to do good works. Not that they in and of themselves save. In otherwords, God doesn't save us to have a big chatting party whilst sitting on our thumbs. But to do good works. And if you believe you're living out your salvation (with fear and trembeling) you should be doing good works.

Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

It seems like Jesus relates keeping commandments directly to personal relationship.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I disagree. I think DHK presented it consistently with it's context.



Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

It seems like Jesus relates keeping commandments directly to personal relationship.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

BTW my referrence to DHK wasn't specific with Romans 5:1. It was the other verses which he had previously quoted. The point is Catholics and Orthodox both believe that they are Justified by their faith but there is a responsibility to do works once they are saved. They agree without faith there are no amount of deeds that can be done to gain salvation. Once belief is in place there is a responsibility to do deeds. Not to do so is not in keeping with salvation. Unlike most here Catholics and Orthodox believe you can become apostate. So Salvation is having been saved by God giving you the faith by which you accept it. For them salvation is living in that Grace and continualy staying in it. and Finally Salvation is the reception of that future hope of the resurrected body. But all of it is accomplished on the Cross, and the ressurection of Jesus Christ and is being accomplished as we live our lives. And will be accomplished when we receive the eternal glory. For Classical Christian their deffinition is more than one thing. Its inclusive of the entire christian experience. So they would look at it like this Romans 1:16

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

We are saved because we believed. This believe isn't given by our selves but by God to us. But then there is the ongoing salvation (living out your salvation) Philipians 2:12

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

and again 1 Pet 2:2

Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,

Also Paul is writing to the Corinthians here or to a group of believers who are saved yet he says

5For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows. 6If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer.

This must mean their continuing salvation or living salvation since the hearers are already believers. Paul is willing to suffer that the Corinthians might live out their salvation. Otherswise why would people already elect in this verse

10Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

May obtain salvation? Or

8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

So salvation is a continuing thing which leads us in obedience and finally there it is reflective of the thought that we will be saved once all is done.

11And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

In the context of the verse he's saying live rightly because the future salvation hoped for is nearer than when they first believed. So they had at once already been saved by their believe but they obviously are waiting for their future salvation.

 

[DHK]

DHK, I find myself once again agreeing with the content of your post, but despising your tone. Your response that it is "an obvious twisting of the scripture" is violent in it's hatred and I find it useful for nothing but insult. If it were obvious, then he - along with everyone else - would see it the way you do. Clearly, it is not obvious, so instead of trying to shame him for not sharing your point of view, perhaps it would be more useful to lay out your case from the scripture.

Was it a twisting of Scripture? Yes.
Why is it violent and hatred to point out truth. That in itself is a personal attack which is against the BB rules. Who gives you the right to read into a person's heart? You have that God-given ability? Where from?
Look at the inconsistency of your own post right here.

"I find my self agreeing with you."
Then you attack me, first by quoting me, Your response ...is " an obvious twisting of the Scripture."
1. Now remember, you have just said that you have agreed with me.
2. But now you say, "Clearly it is not so obvious."
3. So in contradiction of yourself you don't agree with me. You say what was formerly obvious is now not obvious.

To point out truth is not hatred, my friend.
To point out error is not hatred either.
Perhaps you should check your own heart.

DHK, you are entirely too contentious. You incite. Your words fall to the floor without meaning because of your contention. Your authority is moot because of your lack of love.

More personal insult; more looking where you cannot see.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

 

[DHK]

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