are there different kinds of calvinists?

[skypair]

Rip: So I suppose you willfully chose to disregard Deuteronomy 29:29: "The LORD our God has secrets known to no one. We are not accountable for them, but we and our children are accountable forever for all that he has revealed to us, so that we may obey all the terms of these instructions."( NLTse). We simply are not privy to all of God's innner workings. The Lord chooses to reveal some things through His Word. Other things He did not deem proper for us to be informed about this side of glory.Can you accept that the Lord does things simply because it pleased Him to do so, without asking for your permission?

Nice subterfuge but God does reveal that believers are saved. So why doesn't Sproul just "go with that?" It's because he and Calvinists have this inexplicable penchant for KNOWING that God elects unto salvation.

Rip: Do the words "These things I have written unto you that you might believe ..." mean anything to you?! People without the Spirit can't receive the things of God because they are spiritually discerned.See 1 Cor. 2:14 for clarification.If one is a child of God, one is elect. I seem to have to repeat this in every post to you Mr. Doubter. You do seem to be in some anxiety to verify if your election and calling are legitimate.

First, you misquote John. It's "that you might KNOW..."

Second, there are 5 very verifiable reasons there for one to know he/she is saved. But in order to use the test, one has to "believe on the name of the Son of God." The test does no good if you are testing whether your belief in Calvinism and your "election" has got you saved. You might very well exhibit all the same "proofs" to yourself.

skypair

 

[David Lamb]

Nice subterfuge but God does reveal that believers are saved. So why doesn't Sproul just "go with that?" It's because he and Calvinists have this inexplicable penchant for KNOWING that God elects unto salvation.

First, you misquote John. It's "that you might KNOW..."

Second, there are 5 very verifiable reasons there for one to know he/she is saved. But in order to use the test, one has to "believe on the name of the Son of God." The test does no good if you are testing whether your belief in Calvinism and your "election" has got you saved. You might very well exhibit all the same "proofs" to yourself.

skypair

Because I don't know Sproul personally, I cannot be sure, but I imagine that he would be quite happy (as I am) to agree with you that it is believers who are saved. You say that Calvinists have a penchant for knowing that God elects unto salvation. I am fairly certain that it is you who often writes that (in your view) God elects to office, not to salvation. Yet Paul, writing to "the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse," not just those who were appointed to some particular office, says in Colossians 3,12:

Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;​

The context there is behaviour among those who have been saved, not appointment to any particular office. Similarly, writing to "the church of the Thessalonians" in 1 Thessalonians 1.4 says:

knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.​

The context there is not about appointment to office, but of the gospel coming to them in word, in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and of them receiving that gospel with joy, as they became followers of the apostles and of the Lord.

You later talk about calvinists supposedly holding that their belief in calvinism and their election saved them. I have never come across a calvinist who has held to such a thing, just as I have never come across a non-Calvinist who thinks that their belief in non-calvinism saved them. Alike, we attribute our salvation to the completed work of Jesus Christ on Calvary.

Some of the things you attribute to calvinism are so foreign to what I actually believe, that I must say that in the way you use that term I am not a Calvinist. Indeed, I have yet to come across one person on the BB who believes (for instance) that their calvinism saved them, or that belief in election somehow does away with the necessity for belief in Christ and repentance.

This brings me back to the title of the thread - "Are there different kinds of calvinists?" Whether there are or not, there certainly seem to be some widely diverse notions about what calvinism actually is.

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

Because I don't know Sproul personally, I cannot be sure, but I imagine that he would be quite happy (as I am) to agree with you that it is believers who are saved. You say that Calvinists have a penchant for knowing that God elects unto salvation. I am fairly certain that it is you who often writes that (in your view) God elects to office, not to salvation. Yet Paul, writing to "the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse," not just those who were appointed to some particular office, says in Colossians 3,12:

Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;​

The context there is behaviour among those who have been saved, not appointment to any particular office. Similarly, writing to "the church of the Thessalonians" in 1 Thessalonians 1.4 says:

knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.​

The context there is not about appointment to office, but of the gospel coming to them in word, in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and of them receiving that gospel with joy, as they became followers of the apostles and of the Lord.

You later talk about calvinists supposedly holding that their belief in calvinism and their election saved them. I have never come across a calvinist who has held to such a thing, just as I have never come across a non-Calvinist who thinks that their belief in non-calvinism saved them. Alike, we attribute our salvation to the completed work of Jesus Christ on Calvary.

Some of the things you attribute to calvinism are so foreign to what I actually believe, that I must say that in the way you use that term I am not a Calvinist. Indeed, I have yet to come across one person on the BB who believes (for instance) that their calvinism saved them, or that belief in election somehow does away with the necessity for belief in Christ and repentance.

This brings me back to the title of the thread - "Are there different kinds of calvinists?" Whether there are or not, there certainly seem to be some widely diverse notions about what calvinism actually is.

Brother Lamb,

You are a gracious man. Thank you for the kind way you discuss these issues.

I do not want to intrude upon the discussion you are having here with Brother Sky, but have you considered that the epistles you refer to are written to the corporate local church and to all believers (the "body of Christ") corporately?

Do you believe that the Scriptures teach the priesthood of all believers in the New Covenant? If that two premises are fact, (and I believe they are) then the Church is elect as the new remnant to be the depository of truth and the worldwide dissemination of truth with every believer a priest before God with the responsibility (Ambassadors) to preach the Word of reconciliation (II Cor. 5).

 

[webdog]

Do you believe that the Scriptures teach the priesthood of all believers in the New Covenant? If that two premises are fact, (and I believe they are) then the Church is elect as the new remnant to be the depository of truth and the worldwide dissemination of truth with every believer a priest before God with the responsibility (Ambassadors) to preach the Word of reconciliation (II Cor. 5).

Great point. :thumbs:

 

[skypair]

[/INDENT]The context there is behaviour among those who have been saved, not appointment to any particular office. Similarly, writing to "the church of the Thessalonians" in 1 Thessalonians 1.4 says:

Or he likely means that the church is "elect" just as Israel was before the church.

I believe, David, that you'll be chasing invisible foxes in trying to prove that we are elect unto salvation. And furthermore, what would it matter if we were? It would still be our responsibility to believe, repent, and receive the Spirit (Acts 2:38), no?

skypair

 

[mparkerfd20]

... And furthermore, what would it matter if we were? It would still be our responsibility to believe, repent, and receive the Spirit (Acts 2:38), no?
skypair

Ahh you're starting to understand! :BangHead: The contention is that you can't even believe, repent, and receive the Spirit unless God draws you to do so. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44).

 

[skypair]

Ahh you're starting to understand! :BangHead: The contention is that you can't even believe, repent, and receive the Spirit unless God draws you to do so. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44).

Oh, yes. I've known that for quite some time -- but not in the Calvinist postulation that God only draws the elect. Christ said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw ALL men to Me." He first draws all men and those who receive will be "raised up in the last day." Do you find any contradiction in these passages?

skypair

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

Ahh you're starting to understand! :BangHead: The contention is that you can't even believe, repent, and receive the Spirit unless God draws you to do so. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44).

The fact you are missing in the text you refer to in John 6 is that there were those who had rejected the gospel in the Law who were present. They were reprobate (cast away by God due to continual unbelief; see Romans 1:28). Therefore, God was not drawing these reprobates.

Read Matthew 13:1-23. This is also why Christ says He taught in parables; i.e., so these reprobates would not be given a second chance. This is also the same reason why God says He will send a strong delusions to the apostates after the Rapture of the Church (II Thess. 2:10-11).

 

[Rippon]

Nice subterfuge but God does reveal that believers are saved. So why doesn't Sproul just "go with that?" It's because he and Calvinists have this inexplicable penchant for KNOWING that God elects unto salvation.

Rip:What are you talking about?! You had said "How does God choose whom He does to salvation. And if we can't know, then how can we ever have assurance of salvation?"
I wasn't saying anything about God revealing that believers are saved. Of course believers by very definition are saved. I gave you Deut.29:29 to ponder because we do not know the inner workings of why God chooses whom He does aside from the biblically established fact that "it gave him great pleasure."( Eph. 1:5c, NLTse)

Our assurance of salvation has nothing to do with how God chooses whom He does.

Yes, Calvinists believe the Bible when it comes to knowing that the Lord elects unto salvation.Our "penchant" is quite explicable however, we follow the Bible.

First, you misquote John. It's "that you might KNOW..."

Rip: Correct, it is indeed "know".

Second, there are 5 very verifiable reasons there for one to know he/she is saved.

Rip: Okay, cite them for us.

But in order to use the test, one has to "believe on the name of the Son of God." The test does no good if you are testing whether your belief in Calvinism and your "election" has got you saved. You might very well exhibit all the same "proofs" to yourself.

Rip: You are wasting my keystrokes in responding to such drivel. Calvinists don't test their belief of Calvinism, we place our faith in the Christ, who alone saves.Our assurance is from the Word of God and the witness of the Spirit.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture From The NLTse

Oh, yes. I've known that for quite some time -- but not in the Calvinist postulation that God only draws the elect. Christ said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw ALL men to Me." He first draws all men and those who receive will be "raised up in the last day." Do you find any contradiction in these passages?

skypair

Rip: "I will draw all men unto Me."The word "men" isn't in the original. The Lord draws all sorts of people from every tribe, nation, language,and station of life. The Lord does not draw each and every person upon the face of the earth -- past, present and future. You need to consult John 6 for an explanation of what drawing is. All of those He draws are savingly united to the Lord, not one of them is left behind. Drawing is always toward completion. It's never a half-way attempt by thew Lord. It's not a mere tugging. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me. and at the last day I will raise them up."( John 6:44,)In verse 37 it says that "those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them."Verse 65 repeats the truth:"That is why I said that people can't come to me unless the Father gives them to me."

There's no such talk as "those who receive."The Father gives and they come, period.

 

[psalms109:31]

How the Father draws

Since I know the Father wants all men to be saved so I ask how He draws us.

John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Through the words of Jesus, because not only are they the Fathers but they are Spirit and they are Life.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

The drawing is important but also this is important

John 6:
47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

So must be drawn and believed to have eternal life.

I cannot believe the way rip does, because I know God loved the world that He sent His Son.

You must get the words of Jesus and believe to have eternal life.

We can walk away just like the young rich ruler or be following a crowd not being drawned by the Father but the crowd and be rejected. We are to follow Jesus not the crowd

 

[Rippon]

Since I know the Father wants all men to be saved so I ask how He draws us.

Rip: Whatever He wants will happen. He does not want each and every person who has ,is, and shall live to be saved. He actually hides the Truth from some. He does not want someone saved who He chooses not to reveal Himself to.How does the Lord draw?Read and meditate on John 6.


The drawing is important ...

Rip : It is critical.


I cannot believe the way rip does, because I know God loved the world that He sent His Son.

Rip: But Rip believes the Bible Ps.I certainly believe that God loved the world ( of the elect) that He sent His one and only Son so that those who believe in Him will not experience the second death, but have eternal life.Christ did not die for those He did not pray for. He did not die for those He hates. He did not die for those He hid saving truths from. He did not die for the goats, only the sheep. He did not die for the non-Church, only the Church. He did not die for those to whom He says "I do not know them."And of course those whom He does not know, He does not love.Got it? Or do you wish to deny clear scripture?

 

[David Lamb]

And furthermore, what would it matter if we were? It would still be our responsibility to believe, repent, and receive the Spirit (Acts 2:38), no? skypair

That is pretty much what I have been saying all along, not just on this thread. Just looking through some of my posts, I came across the following:

But you still seem mistaken when you imply that calvinists believe sinners can be actually saved without believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

We must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. We must repent of our sins.

Calvinists do indeed believe in conversion, in the need for repentance, and that we definitely do not believe that sinners are to just sit back and wait to see if God will save them.....

I am a monergist. However, please don't misunderstand that as somehow meaning that I consider belief and repentance unnecessary - an accusation sometimes made against monergism.

Regarding repentance, and turning to Christ, you should know by now that I do believe these to be absolutely necessary...

In the New Testament, we do read of unbelievers being told that they are sinners, that they must repent and believe the gospel, that they must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved, that there is no other way of salvation, and so on.


​

So yes, of course I believe that it is man's responsibility to repent and believe. (Not sure that receiving the Holy Spirit could be classed as a responsibility, though).

 

[David Lamb]

Brother Lamb,

You are a gracious man. Thank you for the kind way you discuss these issues.

I do not want to intrude upon the discussion you are having here with Brother Sky, but have you considered that the epistles you refer to are written to the corporate local church and to all believers (the "body of Christ") corporately?

Do you believe that the Scriptures teach the priesthood of all believers in the New Covenant? If that two premises are fact, (and I believe they are) then the Church is elect as the new remnant to be the depository of truth and the worldwide dissemination of truth with every believer a priest before God with the responsibility (Ambassadors) to preach the Word of reconciliation (II Cor. 5).

Thank you for your kind and undeserved words, and I certainly didn't take your post as an intrusion.

Yes, I do believe that the Scriptures teach the priesthood of all believers, but I am not sure I mean the same by that phrase as you do. I don't consider baptist pastors, elders, etc. to be "priests" (or more accurately, they are, but only in the sense that all believers are priests). So I would not use the phrase "the priesthood of all believers" in connection with the responsibility of every Christian to witness/evangelise. I would use that phrase to indicate the difference between (say) the Roman Catholic notion that sinners have only curtailed rights of access to God, and that for many things they must go through an intermediary - a "priest" in the RC meaning of that word.

Regarding Paul's epistles, I am afraid I cannot see what difference it makes that most are addressed to local churches, since those churches are made up of individual believers.

Thank you again.

God bless you.

 

[psalms109:31]

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight. [Or will direct your paths]

God hides the truth from the wise and the learned because they do lean on thier own understanding. They do not trust in the Lord but lean to much on thier own understanding.

We must come to Jesus as a child and depend on Him to lead us to the truth.

God does want all men to be save and come to the knowledge of the truth, but you have to go God's way not your own

We cannot live on little pieces of bread, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God

 

[psalms109:31]

Goat and sheep

they used goats to lead sheep into a pit of thier destruction. The goat would lead a sheep into a pit and jump off right at the end and the sheep would continue in the pit.

The sheep would blindly follow. The goats are false teacher who know what they are doing, but continue doing it.

 

[skypair]

That is pretty much what I have been saying all along, not just on this thread. ...

[/INDENT]So yes, of course I believe that it is man's responsibility to repent and believe. (Not sure that receiving the Holy Spirit could be classed as a responsibility, though).

So you use the term "Calvinist" loosely. :laugh: Cause it seems your Presby and Congregational and Methodist brethren, for the most part, prefer "confirmation" that they are "elect" or no "works" at all rather than "conversion."

However, I realize you, rip, etal. are on a Baptist Board cause you are more Baptist than Calvinist, right?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Rip: You are wasting my keystrokes in responding to such drivel. Calvinists don't test their belief of Calvinism, we place our faith in the Christ, who alone saves.Our assurance is from the Word of God and the witness of the Spirit.

I'm sorry, rip. I probably am responding more to the assertions of the author I am reading just now (John M. Frame) and to the "regeneration precedes faith" TULIP than to Baptist rippon.

You don't seem to be a "hardliner," just very excitable. :laugh:

Oh -- 5 "tests:" 1) obey Christ's commandments, 2) hate not the brethren, 3) be indwelt, 4) understand spiritual things, 5) denies not the Son of God. Those are the ones I've been taught from 1John anyway.

skypair