TCGreek said:
skypair, I'm actually enjoying this discussion.
Ditto.
2. Skypair, my Bible tells me that God raised up one like Pharaoh to display His power (Ex 9:16; Rom 9:17).
Question is --- would have He displayed it if Pharoah had asquiesed to Moses the first time? Sure. Pharoah would have been acknowledging that power of the God of the Jews that way also.
3. Are you saying that God didn't what Nebby was going to do and only reacted after Nebby's disobedience?
Of course not. Foreknowing what he was going to do is not the same as making him do it ("controlling" him) though, is it? And Nebby didn't make his confession while in the midst of his freely accomplished defiance of God, did he? He only discovered God's "control" when God revealed the consequences.
4. Let someone else be the judge of that, since we're both bias in our approach. :thumbs:
Here's a little something that might unbias you --- why do you suppose you don't know much about eschatology? Because Calvin and those you read and listen to never made the mold to "pour scripture into" on that topic. And the "whole counsel of God," once known, would reveal things the Calvinism doesn't have a "cubby hole" for (like 2 folds).
5. My friend, God DOES NOT MAKE MAN SIN. Man sin on their own but their sinning is not unknown to God.
We're talking about "control," TC. "Sovereignty." God created every man a sinner, so you say. Calvinism makes God make every man sin.
I do not accept that. I accept every man born innocent, sins on his own, and his own choice to sin makes him a sinner. So yes, in your construct, God does make man sin whether you aver it or not.
7. You're giving Calvin too much credit. I owe nothing to Calvin except the term "Calvinism." The doctrines of grace are all over Scripture; if you look carefully you'll see them.
I want you to think of something with me -- think about the AC. IMO, he will be a Pope. He's going to use "dark sentences" which we know to be parables. When the rapture comes and he steps forward, he will convince the world that the tares are taken and the wheat must be gathered into his barn.
He'll point to the Bible and claim it is HIS barn, He's Christ, and that all denoms need to join him. He's gonna "pour the Bible" into his mold just like Calvin once did!
Are the Pope's doctrines all over the Bible? Does he make a fair show of scripture such that the western world follows him as Christ vicariously and then as Christ Himself? Does he appear as Christ in Rev 6 riding his white horse onto the scene? The fact is, abuse of scripture has little to do with truth in the "No Spin Zone" of believing faith.
8. I agree to some degree, but even you will admit that without the grace of God man would never believe. But of course, we understand the movement of that grace differently.
I believe grace makes the believer -- otherwise God is merely extending mercy (not giving men what they do deserve). But in grace, God offered what men don't deserve -- new life and glory beyond.
9. What is the meaning of John 6:65?
"Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." One thing it means is this:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44 This is interpretted just 4 verses before: John 6:40 --
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." We come to Him when we BELIEVE on Him.
Earlier (6:36), Jesus had said, "That ye also have seen me, and believe not." Had these "come" then?? No. But if they "come," the Father has "given" them -- "translated them into the kingdom of His dear Son." Col 1:13 How? He took those He had justified for their belief in Him and transferred them into the newly formed spiritual kingdom of Christ, the church.
10. Israel once enjoyed the Land but lost possession of it through disobedience. Now that is Scripture. But of course, we both agree to an eschatological Regathering.
I found a listing of the 8 covenants in scripture. Do you want them to look at? Most of them are unfulfilled because they involve Israel in ultimate obedience to God "in Christ." That is, in the MK.
11. Regeneration by the Spirit and the indwelling of the Spirit of Adoption are two different things, my brother.
Well, you keep saying that but I somehow cannot picture myself regenerated (new me) without the Spirit living in me. I might "turn over a new leaf" if filled with the Spirit. At some point in time in my journey to salvation at age 16, I know the Spirit "pricked" me and I tried to live a new life under my own power. Some people think they are saved by adopting God's rules. I tried that too.
To me, there is no true "regeneration" without indwelling. Perhaps you could explain your own experience of the difference.
12. I'm both covenant and dispensatonal. Now, you have to figure out how that works, yet I'm not the dispensational type as Darby or Scofield.
Well, that's good. I believe it works then that you believe in 2 dispensations -- distinctives between Israel and the church which, IMO, must be observed if one is to make any sense of the plans of God. Yet you are covenantal spiritually because we both (Israel and church) come first by justification by faith in God. Where the distinction lies is that the church is also sanctified now rather than in the MK -- resurrected to new life in this life rather than after death.
13. Israel is still God's people and there's a temporary hardening on her until the fullness of the Gentiles (Rom 11:25ff). God is not done with Israel.
That's right. Believing Israel is going to walk this earth again by the resurrection of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 13:34 -- you may never have noticed it before -- but when God raised Jesus from the dead/grave, Paul said that was the day God "begot" His Son -- rebirthed Him in the manner that Israel will be reborn from their graves. This is the "rebirth" that Nicodemus was supposed to know about but didn't. And this is the "then shall all Israel be saved" event Paul speaks of in 11:26. Rebirth of the OT saints from their literal graves. And we are? Reborn in the bodies we have now, right?