My post #91
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Are There Such as "carnal" Christians?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
My post #91
freeatlast
New Member
My post #91
Like I said I do not respond to that many verese at once. If you have one or two of them you can pick them and I will be glad to explain them as scripture does not contradict.
Like I said I do not respond to that many verese at once. If you have one or two of them you can pick them and I will be glad to explain them as scripture does not contradict.
1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Was the man saved and living in gross sin or was he an unbeliever.
Like I said I do not respond to that many verese at once. If you have one or two of them you can pick them and I will be glad to explain them as scripture does not contradict.
2 Peter 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)
Was Lot just and righteous or an unbeliever?
Like I said I do not respond to that many verese at once. If you have one or two of them you can pick them and I will be glad to explain them as scripture does not contradict.
Romans 8: 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Paul say if ye live after the flesh ye shall die, is the ye believers or unbelievers?
What class of if is used on the if ye and again is the ye a believer or an unbeliever?
Like I said I do not respond to that many verese at once. If you have one or two of them you can pick them and I will be glad to explain them as scripture does not contradict.
Then 1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Again is John speaking to believers and what is the class of the word "if" here?
Votice verse 6 who is the "we" believer or unbeliever? What is the class of "if"?
Like I said I do not respond to that many verese at once. If you have one or two of them you can pick them and I will be glad to explain them as scripture does not contradict.
Here are the classes if you missed them.
1st Class = Positive - True
2nd Class = Negative - False
3rd Class = Neutral - Maybe
4th Class = Wish List
freeatlast
New Member
1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Was the man saved and living in gross sin or was he an unbeliever.
First let's look at the same writer in the same book and see what he says.
6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
So the answer is no if a person is practicing sin they are not saved. Now was this person saved. Many commentators have wrestled with that question. First it is not clear that the man was living in sin. He may have had a one night stand and this was not his practice. Also if you look at the passage it says that his spirit may be saved. That is future tense and suggests that the person is not saved but needs saved.
So either the person that is being spoken about is lost claiming to be a believer or this was a sin that is not being lived in. Either way 1 John 3 is still true.
First let's look at the same writer in the same book and see what he says.
6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
So the answer is no if a person is practicing sin they are not saved. Now was this person saved. Many commentators have wrestled with that question. First it is not clear that the man was living in sin. He may have had a one night stand and this was not his practice. Also if you look at the passage it says that his spirit may be saved. That is future tense and suggests that the person is not saved but needs saved.
So either the person that is being spoken about is lost claiming to be a believer or this was a sin that is not being lived in. Either way 1 John 3 is still true.
This is unclear how?
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
Sounds very much like he is cohabiting with his step mother where do you see this as not being sin? Paul seems to say it is and it is continuing.
The church had not taken a stand against it.
And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
Then Paul states that the one practicing such sin will be turned over to satan for distruction of the flesh, but the spirit will be saved.
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus
Where is this unclear? Does the term saved conote a saved person? He will be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus Paul said, this all seems to be very clear.
First let's look at the same writer in the same book and see what he says.
6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
So the answer is no if a person is practicing sin they are not saved. Now was this person saved. Many commentators have wrestled with that question. First it is not clear that the man was living in sin. He may have had a one night stand and this was not his practice. Also if you look at the passage it says that his spirit may be saved. That is future tense and suggests that the person is not saved but needs saved.
So either the person that is being spoken about is lost claiming to be a believer or this was a sin that is not being lived in. Either way 1 John 3 is still true.
I noticed you skipped verse 11 so here it is,
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
That is the difference the unbeliever is not washed, sanctified or justified in Christ name. All believers are and Christ has atoned for their sins, when the Father looks upon the believer does he see their sin or the Righteousness of Christ that has paid for their sin?
First let's look at the same writer in the same book and see what he says.
6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
So the answer is no if a person is practicing sin they are not saved. Now was this person saved. Many commentators have wrestled with that question. First it is not clear that the man was living in sin. He may have had a one night stand and this was not his practice. Also if you look at the passage it says that his spirit may be saved. That is future tense and suggests that the person is not saved but needs saved.
So either the person that is being spoken about is lost claiming to be a believer or this was a sin that is not being lived in. Either way 1 John 3 is still true.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Who is the one who takes away sin and in him is no sin?
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Now those who abide in Him sinneth not, how do you see that verse? Does it mean the believer is sinless that none of us commits sin? But whoso sinneth hath not seen Him it says, neither known him so how does that fit when we know all do sin?
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Doeth whose righteousness man's or God's? None of us are righteous no not one but we serve God and do that which is right in His sight. But how does the father see those who are saved as sinners or does He see Christ Righteousness imputed to us and therefore we are righteous?
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
We commit sin as believers are we ofthe devil? Did Christ destroy the work of the devil and in the believer God sees not sin but Christ righteousness in us?
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Christ seed remains in us the seed of Righteousness, the Holy Spirit continues to indwell us even when we sin, we commit sin and some even continue in sin but because we are born of God we have Righteousness imputed to our account.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
How do we do Righteousness? Does that mean sin or does that mean the Righteousness of Christ that is imputed to us. Scripture is clear there is none righteous no not one, do we love our brothers in Christ we are command too but do we? This all deals with how Jesus Blood and Righteousness has paid for our sins and the Righteousness of Christ has been imputed to us by Faith. It has nothing to do with living in sin or not but how we are covered.
Paul covers this in Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
None is righteous no not one none of can do righteously only Christ and through Him we have imputed righteousness.
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Verse 22 makes it very clear the Righteousness of God is by Faith of Jesus Christ unto and upon all them that believe, not all that believe and do righteousness but upon all who Believe, did Lot believe and yet lived in sin? Did Solomon believe and yet turn to sin?
But their is no difference all have sinned and come short of God's Glory both saved and unsaved. We all sin and we all fall short of God's glory but Faith makes the difference, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ brings imputed Righteousness to all. Scripture is clear believers do falter and fail and come short of God's glory, the saved person is coverd by the Blood of Christ and His sins are Atoned for, and that is the difference John speaks of as well as PAul.
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
freeatlast
New Member
This is unclear how?
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
Sounds very much like he is cohabiting with his step mother where do you see this as not being sin? Paul seems to say it is and it is continuing.
The church had not taken a stand against it.
And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
Then Paul states that the one practicing such sin will be turned over to satan for distruction of the flesh, but the spirit will be saved.
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus
Where is this unclear? Does the term saved conote a saved person? He will be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus Paul said, this all seems to be very clear.
You are assuming and coming to a conclusion in your assumption. First it does not say stepmother. Second it does not say will be saved. It says may or might be saved. Also it does not say they were living together. If you look at second Christians Paul questions the Corinthians salvation in the last chapter.
What we do know is this;
6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Those people are not saved and will not be saved unless they repent.
Calling a Christian carnal, as one living in sin, is contrary to scripture. Christians do not practice sin.
Whosoever is born of God doth not (practice) commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
I never got a decent answer from this post.James is writing to "my brethren," believers in Christ.
He says:
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? (James 4:4-5)
It is evident from verse 5 that the Spirit dwells within them. They are saved; indwelt by the Spirit of God, and yet at the same time so worldly that James says they are "the enemies of God." That is what I would call a "carnal Christian."
They have committed spiritual adultery. Instead of remaining true to the Lord, they have made friends with the world; they have left their true love, Jesus Christ, and have flirted with the world, the enemy of God. Some have jumped right in, so that not even the world can tell the difference between the Christians and the worldly heathen. That is where most of Christianity is today IMO. Carnal Christians abound.
If James is not addressing his remarks to carnal Christians then who is he speaking to?
freeatlast
New Member
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Who is the one who takes away sin and in him is no sin?
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Now those who abide in Him sinneth not, how do you see that verse? Does it mean the believer is sinless that none of us commits sin? But whoso sinneth hath not seen Him it says, neither known him so how does that fit when we know all do sin?
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Doeth whose righteousness man's or God's? None of us are righteous no not one but we serve God and do that which is right in His sight. But how does the father see those who are saved as sinners or does He see Christ Righteousness imputed to us and therefore we are righteous?
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
We commit sin as believers are we ofthe devil? Did Christ destroy the work of the devil and in the believer God sees not sin but Christ righteousness in us?
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Christ seed remains in us the seed of Righteousness, the Holy Spirit continues to indwell us even when we sin, we commit sin and some even continue in sin but because we are born of God we have Righteousness imputed to our account.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
How do we do Righteousness? Does that mean sin or does that mean the Righteousness of Christ that is imputed to us. Scripture is clear there is none righteous no not one, do we love our brothers in Christ we are command too but do we? This all deals with how Jesus Blood and Righteousness has paid for our sins and the Righteousness of Christ has been imputed to us by Faith. It has nothing to do with living in sin or not but how we are covered.
Paul covers this in Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
None is righteous no not one none of can do righteously only Christ and through Him we have imputed righteousness.
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Verse 22 makes it very clear the Righteousness of God is by Faith of Jesus Christ unto and upon all them that believe, not all that believe and do righteousness but upon all who Believe, did Lot believe and yet lived in sin? Did Solomon believe and yet turn to sin?
But their is no difference all have sinned and come short of God's Glory both saved and unsaved. We all sin and we all fall short of God's glory but Faith makes the difference, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ brings imputed Righteousness to all. Scripture is clear believers do falter and fail and come short of God's glory, the saved person is coverd by the Blood of Christ and His sins are Atoned for, and that is the difference John speaks of as well as PAul.
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Your trying to teach the very thing That John is combatting. it is called Gnosticism
You are assuming and coming to a conclusion in your assumption. First it does not say stepmother. Second it does not say will be saved. It says may or might be saved. Also it does not say they were living together. If you look at second Christians Paul questions the Corinthians salvation in the last chapter.
What we do know is this;
6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Those people are not saved and will not be saved unless they repent.
Calling a Christian carnal, as one living in sin, is contrary to scripture. Christians do not practice sin.
Whosoever is born of God doth not (practice) commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
So when Paul says ye are Carnal to the Corinthians he went contrary to scripture?
1 Corinthians 3: 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
How do you interpret this vers Paul says "ye are yet carnal" is this contrary to scripture?
freeatlast
New Member
I never got a decent answer from this post.
If James is not addressing his remarks to carnal Christians then who is he speaking to?
No Child of God is His enemy. James goes back and forth like many of the books do speaking to and about believers and to and about the lost. Every church has both. Sadly most in the church are lost instead of saved.
The Spirit of God does not dwell in the lost.No Child of God is His enemy. James goes back and forth like many of the books do speaking to and about believers and to and about the lost. Every church has both. Sadly most in the church are lost instead of saved.
My brethren are not the lost.
Those that he admonishes to pray, and gives instructions to pray are not the lost.
These are all in the same passage, the same context.
He is speaking to the saved. You cannot dismiss the passage so easily.
He is speaking to carnal Christians.
He calls the adulterers and adulteresses (spiritually), and he calls them the enemies of God, and so they were because their relationship with the world was closer than their relationship to God--just as it is with many believers today.
Your trying to teach the very thing That John is combatting. it is called Gnosticism
WOW now you call names. I am not a Gnostic.
"A common characteristic of some of these groups was the teaching that the realisation of Gnosis (esoteric or intuitive knowledge), is the way to salvation of the soul from the material world. They saw the material world as created through an intermediary being (demiurge) rather than directly by God"
Where have I said that knowledge brings salvation? Where have I said it is salvation is not by Grace through faith. You need to know what you are calling someone before you start, Gnosis in the Greek means knowledge and nowhere have I said that Knowledge brings salvation.
freeatlast
New Member
So when Paul says ye are Carnal to the Corinthians he went contrary to scripture?
1 Corinthians 3: 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
How do you interpret this vers Paul says "ye are yet carnal" is this contrary to scripture?
Paul says in Romans;
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Most hold that Paul is speaking of himself in this passage. If Paul is using the word to describe someone who is living in sin then nothing that Paul said prior is of any good as he says shall we sin that grace might abound? God forbid!.
Keep in mind that the letter of 1Cor is speaking to the church as a whole, not an individual.
The church was carnal in appearance, but no believer is EVER called carnal as a designation for someone who is personally practicing sin. People who are practicing sin are certainly carnal as they are lost, but believers do not practice sin so no believer can be carnal.