Are There Such as "carnal" Christians?

[freeatlast]

WOW now you call names. I am not a Gnostic.

"A common characteristic of some of these groups was the teaching that the realisation of Gnosis (esoteric or intuitive knowledge), is the way to salvation of the soul from the material world. They saw the material world as created through an intermediary being (demiurge) rather than directly by God"

Where have I said that knowledge brings salvation? Where have I said it is salvation is not by Grace through faith. You need to know what you are calling someone before you start, Gnosis in the Greek means knowledge and nowhere have I said that Knowledge brings salvation.

Well that was not my intent to call you a name. When read what you said about the righteousness of Christ it sounded like what the Gnostics taught in principle and still does.

 

[revmwc]

Paul says in Romans;
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Most hold that Paul is speaking of himself in this passage. If Paul is using the word to describe someone who is living in sin then nothing that Paul said prior is of any good as he says shall we sin that grace might abound? God forbid!.
Keep in mind that the letter of 1Cor is speaking to the church as a whole, not an individual.
The church was carnal in appearance, but no believer is EVER called carnal as a designation for someone who is personally practicing sin. People who are practicing sin are certainly carnal as they are lost, but believers do not practice sin so no believer can be carnal.

Again and again you dismiss clear scriptural refences to the believers being carnal and continue to assert that eventually we should become sinless, not the scripture you continue to quote as your only source.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

You consistantly use this verse so you and say you believe scripture, so if you take this scripture literally then you must believe we come to sinless perfection.

 

[freeatlast]

The local church as a corporate body is made up of individuals. They were, for the most part, carnal individuals. Read chapter 11:30. Many of them were sick, weakly, and many of them died, because of their carnal abuse of the Lord's Supper.

No they were believers who had committed some sin on an individual bases and when enough of them do it the church looks carnal but no believe is carnal as that is a designation for the lost. No believer can practice sin.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

 

[revmwc]

Well that was not my intent to call you a name. When read what you said about the righteousness of Christ it sounded like what the Gnostics taught in principle and still does.

The Righteousness of Christ is imputed to us just as it was to Abraham by Grace through Faith. Imputed Righteousness is Christ rightousness placed in our account. So how do you see this as Gnosticism?

 

[freeatlast]

Again and again you dismiss clear scriptural refences to the believers being carnal and continue to assert that eventually we should become sinless, not the scripture you continue to quote as your only source.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

You consistantly use this verse so you and say you believe scripture, so if you take this scripture literally then you must believe we come to sinless perfection.

If you study the Greek you will see that the text is saying practice sin not no sin. It is not the habit for a believer to sin although we are called to not sin at all.
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

All scripture agrees. There is no contradiction.

 

[freeatlast]

The Righteousness of Christ is imputed to us just as it was to Abraham by Grace through Faith. Imputed Righteousness is Christ rightousness placed in our account. So how do you see this as Gnosticism?

This not about how we are saved. This is about our walk. His righteousness is not applied to our walk. We are commanded to walkj in Him. When we do not we sin, but we do not practice sinning as believers.

 

[revmwc]

This not about how we are saved. This is about our walk. His righteousness is not applied to our walk. We are commanded to walkj in Him. When we do not we sin, but we do not practice sinning as believers.

Again where do you see it as Gnosticism, Gnosticism dealt with salvation by knowledge not about the lifestyle and sin.

 

[DHK]

No they were believers who had committed some sin on an individual bases and when enough of them do it the church looks carnal but no believe is carnal as that is a designation for the lost. No believer can practice sin.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

"SOME SIN?"
Please read the chapter.
In chapter one, Paul addresses the whole church as being divided and full of division (and therefore carnal). One part ran after Apollos, another after Paul, and another simply said that they were of Christ, although they were filled with pride ass well.

In chapter two Paul indicates that there were false teachers among them. He tells them that they (Paul and Barnabas) came in the power of the Holy Spirit and preached Christ crucified. But these false teachers come with enticing words ready to lead them astray. This is the last part of chapter one and most of chapter two.

In chapter three, as a result of accepting the teaching of false teachers they had not grown much. They were babes in Christ. They had been living carnal lives, and Paul calls them Carnal Christians--and so they were. Their lives were filled with carnality.
He warns them. Someday they will stand before the judgement seat of Christ and give account of all their works. They will not lose their salvation but they will lose their reward if they keep on in their carnal ways.

Chapter four is a defense of his apostleship because of the false teachers that are in the church.

In chapter five we have an incident of a man who has an ongoing relationship of immorality (incest), and the members are so carnal that they are proud of this immorality and no rebuke is given. It is the kind of immorality that isn't even spoken of among the heathen. It had been going on for a long time. Remember Paul didn't have internet or phones.
They were instructed to excommunicate this carnal man; to deliver such a one to satan for the destruction of the flesh.

In chapter six they were taking each other to court.

In chapter seven he deals with marital problems.

In chapter eight he deals with food offered to idols.

In chapter nine, he again gives a defense of his apostleship and tells them that he has taken nothing from them even though a pastor is worthy of double honor. At the end he urges them on to run the race that they may not be set on a shelf.

In chapter 10 he gives OT examples for the intent that they too might not fall into idolatry (vs.14). He then goes back to the problem of eating meat offered to idols.

In chapter 11 he speaks of the problem of women not wearing their head coverings and gives six reasons why they should. He then shames them for abusing the Lord's Supper. They had a love feast prior to it. The entire church was involved. Some were drunk. Gluttony was involved. Cliques were formed. The rich went away full and the poor went away hungry, and the Lord's Supper was simply a sham.
The result was a judgment of sicknenss and death!

In chapters 12-14 he spends three chapters on the abuse of the spiritual gifts.

In chapter 15, the false teachers tentacles had reached so far that some had even denied the resurrection. Thus we have "the resurrection chapter."

This was a carnal church filled with carnal believers!

 

[freeatlast]

Again where do you see it as Gnosticism, Gnosticism dealt with salvation by knowledge not about the lifestyle and sin.

Gnosticism also dealt with the personal life. It taught that the flesh was evil and the spirit was good and the two could not touch one another so they never sinned. This is why they denied that Christ came in the flesh and John say we have seen Him, we have handled Him.
To try and equate the righteousness of Christ as ours and not our to be actually practiced is Gnosticism of a sort. His righteousness is applied for salvation but we are to live it out in practice.

 

[revmwc]

If you study the Greek you will see that the text is saying practice sin not no sin. It is not the habit for a believer to sin although we are called to not sin at all.
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

All scripture agrees. There is no contradiction.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Greek meno for abide to continue in how does a believer not continue in Christ?
So are you saying to abide means one can lose their salvation or with the Greek word Meno meaning to remain, to sojourn, to continue refer to the believers walk?

If we keep on abiding in Christ we will not sin, perfectly clear, but the question is do we always abide in Him, do we always walk with Him? If we don;t then we will continue in sin because we have failed to confess sin and are not in fellowship, not abiding in Him. Doesn't say we as believers who have the Holy Spirit indwelling us can't continue in sin. It says if we abide in Him, Paul put it like this, Ephesians 5: 17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Paul is saying in verse 18 to not let sin control or not to be controlled by wine (sin) but to be filled with the Spirit. Is being filled with the Holy Spirit abiding in Him? If that be so then Paul says you can be controlled (abide) by wine or you can choose to be controlled (abide) by the Holy Spirit. But he makes it very clear you are controlled by one or the other and still a believer. The key to verse 6 of 1 John 3 is if you abide in Christ you will not continue in sin. Abiding is not refering to ones salvation but it is refering to ones walk or continuing to walk with Him.

 

[freeatlast]

"SOME SIN?"
Please read the chapter.
In chapter one, Paul addresses the whole church as being divided and full of division (and therefore carnal). One part ran after Apollos, another after Paul, and another simply said that they were of Christ, although they were filled with pride ass well.

In chapter two Paul indicates that there were false teachers among them. He tells them that they (Paul and Barnabas) came in the power of the Holy Spirit and preached Christ crucified. But these false teachers come with enticing words ready to lead them astray. This is the last part of chapter one and most of chapter two.

In chapter three, as a result of accepting the teaching of false teachers they had not grown much. They were babes in Christ. They had been living carnal lives, and Paul calls them Carnal Christians--and so they were. Their lives were filled with carnality.
He warns them. Someday they will stand before the judgement seat of Christ and give account of all their works. They will not lose their salvation but they will lose their reward if they keep on in their carnal ways.

Chapter four is a defense of his apostleship because of the false teachers that are in the church.

In chapter five we have an incident of a man who has an ongoing relationship of immorality (incest), and the members are so carnal that they are proud of this immorality and no rebuke is given. It is the kind of immorality that isn't even spoken of among the heathen. It had been going on for a long time. Remember Paul didn't have internet or phones.
They were instructed to excommunicate this carnal man; to deliver such a one to satan for the destruction of the flesh.

In chapter six they were taking each other to court.

In chapter seven he deals with marital problems.

In chapter eight he deals with food offered to idols.

In chapter nine, he again gives a defense of his apostleship and tells them that he has taken nothing from them even though a pastor is worthy of double honor. At the end he urges them on to run the race that they may not be set on a shelf.

In chapter 10 he gives OT examples for the intent that they too might not fall into idolatry (vs.14). He then goes back to the problem of eating meat offered to idols.

In chapter 11 he speaks of the problem of women not wearing their head coverings and gives six reasons why they should. He then shames them for abusing the Lord's Supper. They had a love feast prior to it. The entire church was involved. Some were drunk. Gluttony was involved. Cliques were formed. The rich went away full and the poor went away hungry, and the Lord's Supper was simply a sham.
The result was a judgment of sicknenss and death!

In chapters 12-14 he spends three chapters on the abuse of the spiritual gifts.

In chapter 15, the false teachers tentacles had reached so far that some had even denied the resurrection. Thus we have "the resurrection chapter."

This was a carnal church filled with carnal believers!

Like I said no individual is ever called carnal. In Cor Paul is dealing with the practice of the church. Not everyone in the church was failing but they still fell under the claim of carnality because they are united with that church which was carnal in appearance. The carnal claim is what the church looked like as a whole. Not every person was failing in the same area. One was failing in one area and another in another. When this was all put together and because of so many failing they looked carnal. No christian can be carnal in their walk as that is a designation for the lost who practices sin. Most churches today would fall under the designation of being carnal.

 

[freeatlast]

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Greek meno for abide to continue in how does a believer not continue in Christ?
So are you saying to abide means one can lose their salvation or with the Greek word Meno meaning to remain, to sojourn, to continue refer to the believers walk?

If we keep on abiding in Christ we will not sin, perfectly clear, but the question is do we always abide in Him, do we always walk with Him? If we don;t then we will continue in sin because we have failed to confess sin and are not in fellowship, not abiding in Him. Doesn't say we as believers who have the Holy Spirit indwelling us can't continue in sin. It says if we abide in Him, Paul put it like this, Ephesians 5: 17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Paul is saying in verse 18 to not let sin control or not to be controlled by wine (sin) but to be filled with the Spirit. Is being filled with the Holy Spirit abiding in Him? If that be so then Paul says you can be controlled (abide) by wine or you can choose to be controlled (abide) by the Holy Spirit. But he makes it very clear you are controlled by one or the other and still a believer. The key to verse 6 of 1 John 3 is if you abide in Christ you will not continue in sin. Abiding is not refering to ones salvation but it is refering to ones walk or continuing to walk with Him.

No you are again trying to come to a conclusion by assuming. The passage is true and it agrees with they rest of the bible. No Christian can be carnal in their walk as that means they are practicing sin which is impossible for the believer. The problem is not that believers are carnal but that many who claim to be believers are not believers.

 

[DHK]

Like I said no individual is ever called carnal.

A church is made up of individuals.
Individuals died because of their carnality.
Individuals were excommunicated because of their carnality.
Other individuals were named--have their names written in God's holy writ for all eternity because of their carnality.

In Cor Paul is dealing with the practice of the church. Not everyone in the church was failing but they still fell under the claim of carnality because they are united with that church which was carnal in appearance.

Not in appearance, but in practice. God doesn't kill people for their appearance, but rather for their carnal actions.

The carnal claim is what the church looked like as a whole. Not every person was failing in the same area. One was failing in one area and another in another.

So now you agree that these "ones" are individual carnal Christians. Good!

When this was all put together and because of so many failing they looked carnal. No christian can be carnal in their walk as that is a designation for the lost who practices sin. Most churches today would fall under the designation of being carnal.

That is your theological paradigm which doesn't fit what was happening in Corinth? It wasn't all the church that got drunk, but certain carnal individuals. Yes, they were individuals--carnal individuals caught up in several different areas of carnality. I listed them for you.

 

[freeatlast]

A church is made up of individuals.
Individuals died because of their carnality.
Individuals were excommunicated because of their carnality.
Other individuals were named--have their names written in God's holy writ for all eternity because of their carnality.

Not in appearance, but in practice. God doesn't kill people for their appearance, but rather for their carnal actions.

So now you agree that these "ones" are individual carnal Christians. Good!

That is your theological paradigm which doesn't fit what was happening in Corinth? It wasn't all the church that got drunk, but certain carnal individuals. Yes, they were individuals--carnal individuals caught up in several different areas of carnality. I listed them for you.

Like I said when Paul calls them carnal he is speaking to the church, not an individual. No individual who is a believer is ever called carnal in the bible.

 

[revmwc]

No you are again trying to come to a conclusion by assuming. The passage is true and it agrees with they rest of the bible. No Christian can be carnal in their walk as that means they are practicing sin which is impossible for the believer. The problem is not that believers are carnal but that many who claim to be believers are not believers.

You are right it agrees with Paul who said to the Corinthians ye are Carnal. It agrees with Peter who said Lot was just but vexed his soul daily and it agrees with John who says 1 John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
Those that say they are in fellowship and hateth His brother are in sin, and He that continues "meno" (abideth) in the light there is no occasion to stumble. Very clearly abiding or continue has to do with the believers walk and not the believers salvation.

I see you still se abideth to mean salvation but the Greek meno doesn't reinforce that belief.

Here is Strongs on Meno:

to remain, abide
in reference to place
to sojourn, tarry
not to depart
1a to continue to be present
1a to be held, kept, continually
in reference to time
to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
1b of persons, to survive, live
in reference to state or condition
to remain as one, not to become another or different
to wait for, await one

Notice especially this "in reference to state or condition" to be a state or condition of walking with Christ. If we walk with Christ we sin not.

Notice 1 John 2: 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

A command to abide in Him, again the word Meno to continue, sounds like John is saying we must make it a practice to continue with Christ yet more support that a believer can walk in Christ or walk the opposite.

Jesus even taught that we must meno in Him, John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

We cannot produce fruit if we are not continuing in fellowship and service to the Vine our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul uses it in 1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If our work abides (survives) he shall have his eteranl reward but if it shall be burned the believer suffers loss yet so he himself shall be saved. Again the carnal believer is building wood, hay and stubble and therefore will see his works be burned up but he will still be saved.
Scripture is very clear and 1 John 3:6 says If and maybe we will abide in Christ then we will not continue in sin, but if we fail to abide in him we continue in sin.

 

[DHK]

Like I said when Paul calls them carnal he is speaking to the church, not an individual. No individual who is a believer is ever called carnal in the bible.

For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. (1 Corinthians 1:11)

I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; (1 Corinthians 1:14)
--He was speaking of carnal individuals, some of which were using their status of who baptized them (as in Apollos). But Paul rebukes them and says I thank God that I haven't baptized any of you individuals save Crispus and Gaius. Those were the individuals he mentioned in contrast to the other individuals whom he hadn't.

It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. (1 Corinthians 5:1)
--An individual having immoral relations with his father's wife. A carnal Christian who later repented.

But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. (1 Corinthians 6:6)
--Individuals. These are nouns used in the singulars. They are not class action suits.

For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (1 Corinthians 11:30)
--The whole church was not dead; some individuals were severely judged.

For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. (1 Corinthians 11:21)
--one is hungry; another is drunk.

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5)

 

[freeatlast]

You are right it agrees with Paul who said to the Corinthians ye are Carnal. It agrees with Peter who said Lot was just but vexed his soul daily and it agrees with John who says 1 John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
Those that say they are in fellowship and hateth His brother are in sin, and He that continues "meno" (abideth) in the light there is no occasion to stumble. Very clearly abiding or continue has to do with the believers walk and not the believers salvation.

I see you still se abideth to mean salvation but the Greek meno doesn't reinforce that belief.

Here is Strongs on Meno:

to remain, abide
in reference to place
to sojourn, tarry
not to depart
1a to continue to be present
1a to be held, kept, continually
in reference to time
to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
1b of persons, to survive, live
in reference to state or condition
to remain as one, not to become another or different
to wait for, await one

Notice especially this "in reference to state or condition" to be a state or condition of walking with Christ. If we walk with Christ we sin not.

Notice 1 John 2: 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

A command to abide in Him, again the word Meno to continue, sounds like John is saying we must make it a practice to continue with Christ yet more support that a believer can walk in Christ or walk the opposite.

Jesus even taught that we must meno in Him, John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

We cannot produce fruit if we are not continuing in fellowship and service to the Vine our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul uses it in 1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If our work abides (survives) he shall have his eteranl reward but if it shall be burned the believer suffers loss yet so he himself shall be saved. Again the carnal believer is building wood, hay and stubble and therefore will see his works be burned up but he will still be saved.
Scripture is very clear and 1 John 3:6 says If and maybe we will abide in Christ then we will not continue in sin, but if we fail to abide in him we continue in sin.

Abiding means saved. All who abide are saved. No saved person continues in sin 1john 3 No Christian is ever called carnal.

 

[freeatlast]

For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. (1 Corinthians 1:11)

I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; (1 Corinthians 1:14)
--He was speaking of carnal individuals, some of which were using their status of who baptized them (as in Apollos). But Paul rebukes them and says I thank God that I haven't baptized any of you individuals save Crispus and Gaius. Those were the individuals he mentioned in contrast to the other individuals whom he hadn't.

It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. (1 Corinthians 5:1)
--An individual having immoral relations with his father's wife. A carnal Christian who later repented.

But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. (1 Corinthians 6:6)
--Individuals. These are nouns used in the singulars. They are not class action suits.

For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (1 Corinthians 11:30)
--The whole church was not dead; some individuals were severely judged.

For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. (1 Corinthians 11:21)
--one is hungry; another is drunk.

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5)

Yes all very true but no individual is ever called carnal. True believers keep the commandments or they are not believers according to scripture. 1John 2 Also you left out how to examine ourselves in 2Cor 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
That is a true believer.

 

[beameup]

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 1 Cor 3:1

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as [mere] men? 1 Cor 3:3

Note the use of "you" and "ye" in the KJB.

True believers are either "carnal" or "spiritual"... no "commandments" involved.
True believers are either "walking in the flesh" or "walking in the Spirit".
True believers are either "self-directed" or "Spirit-directed".

______________________________________________
If you want to be free from the law, study Paul

 

[freeatlast]

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 1 Cor 3:1

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as [mere] men? 1 Cor 3:3

Note the use of "you" and "ye" in the KJB.

True believers are either "carnal" or "spiritual"... no "commandments" involved.
True believers are either "walking in the flesh" or "walking in the Spirit".
True believers are either "self-directed" or "Spirit-directed".

______________________________________________
If you want to be free from the law, study Paul

"as unto babes" That is plural. He was speaking to the church, not an individual. The church came across as carnal because of the collective actions of those at Corinth. No individual believer has ever been called carnal in the scriptures. No true believer can practice sin. 1John 3