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Are Those Who Die in Infancy Saved?
- Thread starter Piper
- Start date
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
You must be born again.
The same Spiritual Miracle that saved my dead God-hating soul was like the one who saved John the Baptist, from his mother's womb.
Mostly, concerning all infants, of course.
John the Baptist didn't die in infancy, but he had a Savior since he was in his mother's womb.
The instrumentality by which he was saved would be the same as all others who are saved; they hear the Word to convict them of their need of a Savior and are given Repentance toward God and Faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, IMHO. They are born again.
I believe that bringing any infant from death unto Eternal Life would be brought about that same One Way. Jesus is the Savior.
The same Spiritual Miracle that saved my dead God-hating soul was like the one who saved John the Baptist, from his mother's womb.
Mostly, concerning all infants, of course.
John the Baptist didn't die in infancy, but he had a Savior since he was in his mother's womb.
The instrumentality by which he was saved would be the same as all others who are saved; they hear the Word to convict them of their need of a Savior and are given Repentance toward God and Faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, IMHO. They are born again.
I believe that bringing any infant from death unto Eternal Life would be brought about that same One Way. Jesus is the Savior.
Why could it not mean exactly what the bible says?
On the day of Pentecost fifty days following the morrow after the weekly following the death of Jesus the Christ, this is stated concerning David;
'Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day;
Peter states on that very day Davis was dead and David was buried and Acts 13:36 David had seen corruption. Peter states further that what David was speaking of the seed of his, David's loins, Jesus the Christ, when he wrote;
Thou wilt not leave my soul to hades, nor wilt Thou give Thy Kind One to see corruption;
David was speaking of the resurrection of the Christ.
V 31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
It would appear to me on that day of Pentecost, the soul of David was still dead in Hades and the flesh of David had seen corruption. It would also appear to me his son would be there with him.
David went to his son.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Dunno how you got here from there, percho. You take some hard left turns on me.
"day of Pentecost"?
"the soul of David was still dead in Hades and the flesh of David had seen corruption"
The soul of David was never said to be 'dead'. His body was and saw corruption.
And the soul of David's baby is not said to be 'dead' or 'alive', just that the child was dead.
Jesus' soul was not left in the grave and His body did not see corruption, right.
Acts 2:31;
Acts 13:31And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
David died and saw corruption in the grave.
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption
Jesus saw no corruption in the grave.
2 Samuel 7:12
And when your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom.
After David had been long dead, God raised up Jesus.
1 Kings 2:10
Then David rested with his fathers and was buried in the City of David.
David died and rested with his father's.
1 Chronicles 29:28
He died at a ripe old age, full of years, riches, and honor, and his son Solomon reigned in his place.
David died.
Acts 2:29
Brothers, I can tell you with confidence that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
Acts 7:60
Falling on his knees, he cried out in a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
He went to the place of departed saints.
Acts 13:22
After removing Saul, He raised up David as their king and testified about him: 'I have found David son of Jesse a man after My own heart; he will carry out My will in its entirety.'
The Living Words: Hell
This article is an xcerpt from Mr. Benner's book The Living Words.
The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. Psalm 18:5 (KJV)
In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word שאול she'ol [H:7585] is translated as either "hell" or "grave" or in some translations, it is transliterated as "Sheol."
What is she'ol and how did the Ancient Hebrews of the Old Testament perceive it? As I have said before, in order to better understand a word, it is essential to look at its root and other related words.
The verbal root of the word שאול she'ol [H:7585] is שאל sha'al [H:7592] and is used almost 200 times where it is usually translated as "asked" such as we see in Genesis 24:47.
And I asked (sha'al) her and said...
Why do we ask questions? We are looking for information that is currently unknown to us. This word, "unknown," is the key to understanding the root שאל sha'al [H:7592].
The word שאלה shi'eylah [H:7596], a noun derived from שאל sha'al [H:7592] is also related to the idea of "unknown" such as can be observed in Job 6:8 where it is translated as a request.
Oh that I might have my request (shi'eylah); and that God would grant me the thing that I long for! (KJV)
The word שאול she'ol [H:7585] is the place where one goes when they die.
The question is, did they understand this to be simply the grave where one is buried or another place one goes after they die-the underworld?
This is a difficult question for one to answer, because the Hebrew Bible never really defines she'ol.
There is evidence, however, that the Hebrews understood she'ol to be more than just the grave.
First, the word קבר qever [H:6913] is the Hebrew word meaning the "grave."
Second, most scriptures using the word she'ol imply a place other than the grave.
An example can found in Genesis 37:35.
and all his sons and daughters rose up to comfort him but he refused to be comforted and he said, because I will go down to my son, unto she'ol, in mourning and his father wept for him.
In this account Jacob believed a wild beast had eaten his son Joseph. As Joseph's body could not possibly be in a grave, Jacob knew that he would be with him somewhere-she'ol.
The Ancient Hebrews did not know where, or even what, she'ol was.
To them it was an "unknown" place, hence its relationship to sha'al meaning "unknown."
Ancient Hebrews never speculated on something unknown-to them it was simply "unknown" and left at that.
But one with a Greek mindset always desires to know the unknown. It is our Greco-Roman western mindset that needs to know where and what she'ol is.
"day of Pentecost"?
"the soul of David was still dead in Hades and the flesh of David had seen corruption"
The soul of David was never said to be 'dead'. His body was and saw corruption.
And the soul of David's baby is not said to be 'dead' or 'alive', just that the child was dead.
Jesus' soul was not left in the grave and His body did not see corruption, right.
Acts 2:31;
Acts 13:31And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
David died and saw corruption in the grave.
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption
Jesus saw no corruption in the grave.
2 Samuel 7:12
And when your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom.
After David had been long dead, God raised up Jesus.
1 Kings 2:10
Then David rested with his fathers and was buried in the City of David.
David died and rested with his father's.
1 Chronicles 29:28
He died at a ripe old age, full of years, riches, and honor, and his son Solomon reigned in his place.
David died.
Acts 2:29
Brothers, I can tell you with confidence that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
Acts 7:60
Falling on his knees, he cried out in a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
He went to the place of departed saints.
Acts 13:22
After removing Saul, He raised up David as their king and testified about him: 'I have found David son of Jesse a man after My own heart; he will carry out My will in its entirety.'
The Living Words: Hell
This article is an xcerpt from Mr. Benner's book The Living Words.
The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. Psalm 18:5 (KJV)
In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word שאול she'ol [H:7585] is translated as either "hell" or "grave" or in some translations, it is transliterated as "Sheol."
What is she'ol and how did the Ancient Hebrews of the Old Testament perceive it? As I have said before, in order to better understand a word, it is essential to look at its root and other related words.
The verbal root of the word שאול she'ol [H:7585] is שאל sha'al [H:7592] and is used almost 200 times where it is usually translated as "asked" such as we see in Genesis 24:47.
And I asked (sha'al) her and said...
Why do we ask questions? We are looking for information that is currently unknown to us. This word, "unknown," is the key to understanding the root שאל sha'al [H:7592].
The word שאלה shi'eylah [H:7596], a noun derived from שאל sha'al [H:7592] is also related to the idea of "unknown" such as can be observed in Job 6:8 where it is translated as a request.
Oh that I might have my request (shi'eylah); and that God would grant me the thing that I long for! (KJV)
The word שאול she'ol [H:7585] is the place where one goes when they die.
The question is, did they understand this to be simply the grave where one is buried or another place one goes after they die-the underworld?
This is a difficult question for one to answer, because the Hebrew Bible never really defines she'ol.
There is evidence, however, that the Hebrews understood she'ol to be more than just the grave.
First, the word קבר qever [H:6913] is the Hebrew word meaning the "grave."
Second, most scriptures using the word she'ol imply a place other than the grave.
An example can found in Genesis 37:35.
and all his sons and daughters rose up to comfort him but he refused to be comforted and he said, because I will go down to my son, unto she'ol, in mourning and his father wept for him.
In this account Jacob believed a wild beast had eaten his son Joseph. As Joseph's body could not possibly be in a grave, Jacob knew that he would be with him somewhere-she'ol.
The Ancient Hebrews did not know where, or even what, she'ol was.
To them it was an "unknown" place, hence its relationship to sha'al meaning "unknown."
Ancient Hebrews never speculated on something unknown-to them it was simply "unknown" and left at that.
But one with a Greek mindset always desires to know the unknown. It is our Greco-Roman western mindset that needs to know where and what she'ol is.
I read an old theology work in the 90's which posited that God miraculously gave infants who doe faith at the moment before they die, and therefore they are born again. That is hard, but it seems to just take that person's theological system and press the question inside it.
I prefer to think that God is a God of Grace. As a God of grace and mercy, he will show that to infants. How he does it is a mystery to me and I will leave it as a mystery. I lean on the character of God. I do not fully understand God, but I am learning.
Exodus 34 God named himself as he passed by Moses. 1st two words describe him.
The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin,
Read the passage, the answer is obvious. Stop asking questions for the purpose of obfuscation.
Babies are unable to believe. They are condemned because they are in Adam.
Well, you cannot say they are transgressors of the law, nor can you say they knew to do right and doeth it not. And you cannot say they caused a weaker brother to sin. I am running out of qualifyers for sin and the infants and toddlers do not qualify for death on any of these biblical definitions for sin. The wages of sin is death, Rom 6:23. Not the wages for being born. One gets wages for something they do. The woman gave birth.
The sin was past on by the man... It takes two to tango... And the beat goes on... Brother Glen
The sin was past on by the man... It takes two to tango... And the beat goes on... Brother Glen
Can you explain why God would even give us definitions of sin if his definitions do not mean anything? Sin is a work. I am going to post a passage where God is getting ready to cast sinners into the lake of fire, which is the penalty of sin, and you will not see being born ias being one of those sins for which they are condemned.
But I already know that reason is going to be lost on you.
,
Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
The last and general resurrection
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The soul of David was never said to be 'dead'. His body was and saw corruption.
And the soul of David's baby is not said to be 'dead' or 'alive', just that the child was dead.
Do souls die or not?
Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Did Jesus expose his soul to death?
Isa 53:12 Therefore I give a portion to him among the many, And with the mighty he apportioneth spoil, Because that he exposed to death his soul, And with transgressors he was numbered, And he the sin of many hath borne, And for transgressors he intercedeth.
Matt 26:38 then saith he to them, 'Exceedingly sorrowful is my soul -- unto death; abide ye here, and watch with me.'
Ps 16:10 NKJV For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, [Greek, Hades]
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
will not leave my soul in Sheol - By what means does Peter state that was fulfilled?
Being born speaks of man’s physical birth while being shapen in iniquity is about spiritual death. Each live physical birth is a stillborn dead birth at the same time because though the baby is alive physically he or she is dead spiritually.
Psalms 51: 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
John The Baptist was the only exception to this rule that I know of having a human father!
Luke 1: 41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
As in I Peter 3:20; "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
"Souls" are put to mean "lives", or persons.
"the soul that sinneth", the life that sinneth, the person who sinneth, etc.
Again, "Soul" is put to mean "life", or person, or individual, etc..
"Because he hath poured out his soul unto death;"
as water is poured out,
"(Psalms 22:14; "I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels")
"or rather as the wine was poured out in the libations or drink offerings;
"for Christ's soul was made an offering for sin, as before; and it may be said with respect to his blood, in which is the life, that was shed or poured out for the remission of sin; of which he was emptied,"
Isaiah 53:12 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary
"my soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death."
"That Christ had an human soul, as well as an human body, is clear from hence; and which was possessed of the same passions as ours are, but without sin, such as joy, love, grief, sorrow and at this time its sorrows were exceeding great: his soul was beset all around with the sins of his people;
"these took hold on him, and encompassed him, which must, in the most sensible manner, affect his pure and spotless mind;
"the sorrows of death and hell surrounded him on every side, insomuch that the least degree of comfort was not let in to him;
"nor was there any way open for it, so that his soul was overwhelmed with sorrow; his heart was ready to break;
"he was brought even, as it were, to the dust of death; nor would his sorrows leave him, he was persuaded, until soul and body were separated from each other; see a like phrase in ( Judges 16:16; "And it came to pass, when she pressed him daily with her words, and urged him, so that his soul was vexed unto death;" ),
Matthew 26:38 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary
Again, Jesus' life was "exceeding sorrowful, even unto death" and His soul, or His life, "was vexed unto death".
Sheol here is the place of the unknown, explicitly, the grave.
One example:
Contemporary English Version
I am your chosen one. You won't leave me in the grave or let my body decay.
Jesus' Life was not left in the grave.
David was made to hope while on his mother's breast, Paul was separated from the womb, ....
Have you read the whole Psalm and applied all of it to yourself? I expect you to do it. You are looking at a "prosopopoeia." This is more than common in the Psalms.
He did not say "you" were sharpen in iniquity and in sin your mother conceived you.
1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned
Put those two together and you will see. DEATH spread to all men through Adam.
37818
Well-Known Member
Sheol/Hades/Nether world, contrary to translations, is never the physical grave.
Yet another attempt to disparage me personally, rather than admit John 3:18 is crystal clear as to the unbelief:
John 3:18 NASB “The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Who would ask: "What is it they don't believe."
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
They are never spoken of as the departed place of the soul, body maybe.
What is the true meaning of Sheol?
abode of the dead
Sheol, abode of the dead in the Hebrew Bible (the Christian Old Testament). The term can be interpreted to mean either the literal place in which dead people are placed (i.e., in the ground) or the ancient world's concept of the afterlife as a subterranean “land of gloom and deep darkness” (Book of Job 10:21).
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AQFnoECB0QBQ&usg=AOvVaw1lKGofayMY2k_WqN1oqcsL
What does Hades mean in Bible?
the dwelling place of the dead
Hades, in the Greek Old Testament, translation of the Hebrew Sheol, the dwelling place of the dead.
Hades | Old Testament
The Body, Upon Death, Goes Back to Dust.
The bodies of those who die are laid to rest in various ways, often by burial.
"...the rich man also died, and was buried" (Luke 16:22).
"And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him (Abraham) in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron."
"So Joseph died, being an hundred and ten years old: and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt" (Gen. 50:4).
The body may be buried, cast into the ocean, cremated, blown to pieces in an explosion, etc. but ultimately the physical remains of a person will decompose and go back to dust:
"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return" (Genesis 3:19).
"All go unto one place; All are of the dust, and all turn to dust again" (Eccl. 3:20).
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7).
"For He knoweth our frame; He remembereth that we are dust" (Psalm 103:14).
"Thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust" (Psalm 104:29).
In Daniel 12:2 the dead are described as those who "sleep in the dust."