Are Today's Christians Becoming Wimps?

[Helen]

I most certainly can understand and advocate self-defense in a war! That is not part of the question here.

But keep in mind that when Jesus was being whipped, mocked, a crown of thorns slammed onto His head, led to Golgotha, nailed to the cross, and then that cross or cross-piece slammed into the ground, ripping tendons and flesh, He was definitely being assaulted. He had both the power and the right to call down every angel in heaven to destroy His attackers and all of us.

He did not do it.

It is said that the church was built on the blood of the martyrs. Now I don't know anyone, including me, who would volunteer for martyrdom as a general thing! Not a pleasant idea! Nevertheless, these men and women stood up for their faith to the point of death. People still do this in Muslim and Communist countries today as well as, from what I understand, some African nations which aren't either.

This life here on earth is simply not the most worthwhile thing we Christians have going for us! God is totally in charge and if one of us is personally attacked, God knew about it and allowed it for a reason. I am NOT talking about defending family or home or country. I am talking about personal attacks -- physical, mental and spiritual.

The only time in the Bible when ANYONE is called upon to protest vehemently when attacked is a woman when being raped or threatened to be raped!

Now, if defending oneself in the process of defending another and so that you CAN defend another is called for, that is different, too.

But this business of "I will fight with anyone who wants to fight with me" is really wrong.

About the 'fight or flight' response. That won't wash. We live in a fallen world and we have sin natures. An adrenalin rush when confronted or threatened heightens awareness and speeds up response time. But how you use that awareness and response is still up to you.

It takes time to learn to NOT fight back. It takes some of us, like me, longer than most, I think. My husband stopped me. Because he would take the blame for everything and if I did something I knew was wrong, he would find a reason why I was perfectly reasonable to do what I did! I found myself almost shouting at him one time something along the lines of "Please! Let me be wrong and apologize! Stop standing up for me TO me!" A VERY strange position to be in for me, but the upshot was that I tend to just smile at insults and threats now.

Granted I have not been physically threatened since one very feisty daughter moved out, and all my words here might be fine on paper and I might thrash like a tigress if threatened.

But at least let me say that this business of things like the martial arts, and maybe even carrying a concealed weapon, don't seem to me to be part of the way Jesus walked.

edit: it takes far more 'macho' and strength to have the self-control not to fight back than to fight back...
as I recall, self-control is one of the fruits of the Spirit, no?

 

[Bunyon]

"But this business of "I will fight with anyone who wants to fight with me" is really wrong"------------------------------------------------------

But that is the problem, you have a preconcieved idea about the issue and where people stand. That is why I say you and others are hearing a message other than what is being given. I don't think we have any Neo Nazies advocating the overthrow of the government becasue it will not allow prayer in schools. I really don't think anyone has said "they will fight with anyone who wants to fight with them" I think everyone agrees to try and turn the cheek as often as possible is the right way to go. So it seems we are arguing past each other.

99 percent of the time I have felt adrenalin in a threatening situation, I have not fought. So I and everyone else on my side have exercised the self control you are talking about. That is not an issue. But God gave us "fight or flight" for a reason. Not everything about us is fallen, we are created in his image. Self defense is built into us. The protective instinct of Mother and Father is built into us. I am just saying you can't afford to be absolute in your passivism. I just don't think you have the grounds to be dogmatic when it comes to extreme circumstances of persecution like in the Sudan.

------"But at least let me say that this business of things like the martial arts, and maybe even carrying a concealed weapon, don't seem to me to be part of the way Jesus walked.---------------------------------------------------

If I could just disappear anytime a crowd threatened to kill me like Jesus did on several occasions, I would not need any self defence tools either.

 

[Bunyon]

Helen,

let me explain why carrying a concealed weapon is rational.

Recently, a woman was being repeatedly stabed by her estranged husband in a local wal-mart. He would not stop, so he was shot and killed by a CCl person. She would be dead otherwise.

Also, when I was a cop, there was an instance where a off duty cop working at krogers heard bullits hitting the wall of the store he was working his part time Job at. He ran across the street an saw a soldier with several weapons heading into the restaurant. He shot the guy in the leg (we were told if we shoot, shoot to kill, that was departmental police) Big mistake. The soldier entered the restaurant and killed a couple of people. The owner came out and begged the shooter to not kill his customers. The shooter shot and killed the owner. The wife covered the body and begged for the life of her husband, he shot and killed her. He then killed 8 or 9 people before the backup got there and entered the building, bringing and end to this ordeal.

What if one single patron, or the owner, would have had a concealed weapon (legally of course).
It would have been a different story.

 

[OCC]

That's a tragic story and if someone had a concealed weapon (legally of course) it could have been different. But wasn't this the way that God determined it would be? It's sad that the police took so long to get there though.

Here, I will try to offer a different perspective. If those two kids' parents in Littleton, CO did not have guns legally, then they would not have had access to them to take to school and kill a bunch of students. That would have been a different story as well. Of course, you could counter with "wasn't this the way God determined it to be?" as well and I'd understand.

 

[Bunyon]

""If those two kids' parents in Littleton, CO did not have guns legally, then they would not have had access to them to take to school and kill a bunch of students."""----------------------------------------------------------------------

The guns were obtained from them illeagally by an adult. He was charged with that crime. The reason most states have now passed ccl laws, is because there was a sharp dramatic decrease in the crime rate when citizens became armed in Florida. But my point is there is rational reasons for being armed and thinking it is ok to defend you family or other innocents. It is not about fighting with anyone who wants to fight.

""""wasn't this the way God determined it to be?" '"---------------------------------------

I would never say that.

 

[OCC]

Ok.

 

[Michaelt]

Originally posted by ROBERTGUWAPO:
Brethren,

It seems to me that Christians are becoming infected

I couldn't agree more...Christians and christianity as a whole are being infected...

 

[Johnv]

To answer the OP, no, Christians are not becoming wimps. What's happenning is that a certain segment of the Christian population is becoming more militant in attitude, and to them, the rest of us are wimps because we don't necessarily share the attidude that militant behavior must somehow be compulsory for Christians.

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by blackbird:
The weapons of our warfare are not carnel but spiritual---to the pulling down of strongholds.

Knowing how to handle a M-16 assault rifle is one thing---rightly dividing the word of truth is quiet another!!

 

[SAMPLEWOW]

Let us all stop and PRAY!

 

[Bunyon]

-----"militant behavior must somehow be compulsory for Christians.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who advocated militant behavior? That is a serious shortcomming when you are unable to hear what is actually said and insist on reading what you want to.

Show me where anyone called for militancy. Or displayed a "I want to fight with anyone who wants to fight with me" attitude. The only way you can call the things people have said "militant" is if you are so pacifistic that it is only Militant by contrast.

It's actually that other way around. Some on this thread are insisting that all Christians must be pacifist in all situations.

 

[TexasSky]

Bunyon,

I don't object to your right to have a weapon and to defend your family on the following conditions:

1) You talk to God about it before you buy it, and before you use it.
2) You are trained to use it.
3) You make sure children and untrained adults don't have access to it.
4) You make sure you don't let it out on the streets as a stolen weapon.
5) You never use it unless you are 100% certain that it IS a life or death situation.

6) You don't call those of us who prefer non-violence "whimps." (I know you didn't.)

 

[Bunyon]

"Bunyon,

I don't object to your right to have a weapon and to defend your family on the following conditions:

1) You talk to God about it before you buy it, and before you use it.
2) You are trained to use it.
3) You make sure children and untrained adults don't have access to it.
4) You make sure you don't let it out on the streets as a stolen weapon.
5) You never use it unless you are 100% certain that it IS a life or death situation.

6) You don't call those of us who prefer non-violence "whimps." (I know you didn't.) "---------------------------------------------------------


Sonds resaonable to me. I am ex-army and Police Officer. I have scored expert with the rifle and Pistol. But I still had to take an instruction course to get my CCL. I wish they would make that trainning more strengent, though.
I keep my guns in a 12 gauge steel safe. I don't know why anyone would use violence unless it was life and death, except to prevent great bodily harm. I would not call anyone who prefred non-violence a whimp. I think we all prefer it, but we can't always count on it.

 

[ROBERTGUWAPO]

Bunyon,

I just came from a "practical shooting" session about 2 hours ago.

My family very well knows that not only am I a provider, spiritual leader, and father--they also know that I am their defender.

My son calls me, "My dad, the best sharpshooter in the world, and no other dad can compare."

I ain't no wimp in front of my family.

To the anti-gun "peaceniks" on this board,

"What is it in "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

There is no question about it being a Constitutional right.

The question is, does it make one a "wimpy, anti-gun 'peacenik'" who seeks to understand what God's word says about violence?

 

[menageriekeeper]

Robert, can I borrow your flak jacket?

When Christ endured all things at his death without defending himself, he did that for a reason. He was defending US! It is my personal opinion that that is the only reason why He didn't defend himself. Christ was on a mission and following a mission plan, just as our armed forces have a plan before sending soldiers to invade another country. When we do send men in, what would happen if they didn't follow the plan?

Christ followed the plan laid out by the Father in order to provide us weak humans with a defense(for without salvation we would have no defense against the wrath of the Father). Should we not follow Christ's example and provide for the physical defense of those weaker around us, just as we try to show others the spiritual defense that Christ provided?

As for my household, we have the physical means to defend ourselves against criminal activity. That includes a security system, locks on the doors, and three very nice handguns, one being a Dirty Harry type 44 caliber that shoots like a dream. My husband carries a concealed weapon with him as he drives long distances to work and back every day. It has proved a great calming tool on those occasions when someone decided to take their road rage out on him. (fear can conquer rage)

If you truely believe in not protecting/defending yourselves then you need to take the locks off the doors.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

How is locking your doors a method of defense? It requires no violence to lock your doors.

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by C4K:
There is no question about it being a Constitutional right.

The question is, does it make one a "wimpy, anti-gun 'peacenik'" who seeks to understand what God's word says about violence?

You betcha--its a constitutional right to carry "Heat"----but I don't carry----but just because I don't carry does not mean I do not support the 2nd Amendment---I do support the 2nd and the 1st and whatever the last is---I support it and will defend it and do defend it.

I don't raise a "ruckus" when I find out that some of my preacher friends "carry heat"---I have firearms of my own---rifles, shotguns and pistols----I keep them unloaded at all times inside the house---and locked up.

I know there are a lot of civilians out there who have the impression that just because they go to the pistol range every now and then and shoot off a box or two of ammo---that they suddenly want to classify themselves as "Firearms Pros"---and they think that just because they carry a heater in their car or pickup truck that they're safe from all harm---and if they have the ole trusty rifle loaded and a round chambered laying in the gun rack at home---that that classifies them as a legalized "Dirty Harry"

What I want people to do on this board is---I want them to rehearse what I call

The Worst Case Scenerio

Say---you get in an argument with me---say---at the checkout line at Wal-Mart-----Hurricane Katrina has me and you worked up into a frezzy. You have reason to believe that I "cut the line" ahead of you---so initially---you "start" the incident---and things get ugly----voices flare and we get in each other's "Kool-Aid"-----OK---Lets just say that I start it---I don't like the way you look---and I start the argument----but I have all intentions of leaving it just that---just an argument---I am under control---but voices flare----nobody makes physical contact---but I'm thinkin'----I'd really like to "Jap Slap" you down right there by the cash register---

but the argument continues----I keep my distance---I never lunge at you---I never verbally threaten you---"I oughta lay you out right here, chump!"---but you can't stand it----

Your "Dirty Harry" self kicks in and you reach for your heater---I pushed your Dirty Harry button---but I didn't break any laws---but you make contact with your firearm and you unholster it in front of everybody and their momma at Wal-Mart---and you discharge your weapon---the bullet goes "who-knows-where"---but nobody is harmed---but you discharged your weapon at me----I want you to know---Your Dirty Harry self will be hearing from my attorney. And by the time we drain each other savings accounts on lawyers fees----you'll wish to be known as Clean Harry!!!

Now---we get in a fist fight---and when its all over and done and I lay your sorry self down on the concrete and my sorry self is on top of you and your sorry self is yellin' for me to get off---but I ain't until its settled---and you get a few good licks in yourself----we finally cool down---we can shake hands and drive off----but you pull your firearm on me---and I ain't carryin'----you are fixin' to be in a heap of trouble.

But I did say---worst case scenerio, didn't I??

You "Pop a cap" into someone---it isn't like TV---you kill someone with your firearm---you will never be able to just "walk off" like nothin' happened---neither physically nor mentally----you just "believe" that you will have "satisfaction" with the perpatrator dead---but once you realize your victim is dead---or you watch him "gaspin'" for air----you will go to your grave tramitized by that one event---that cartridge that cost you $1.00---will probably cost you your sanity---not to count the endless barrage of questions you'll have to answer the police and the attorney and the judge.

It just isn't worth it!!

 

[Bunyon]

There are non-violent methods of defense and there aer violent methods of defense. One must use what is appropiate to the situation. As a police officer, I was tought a progression of deffense. 1- Physical presence. 2-verbal 3- physical action 4 Chemical (pepper spray) 5 - Deady force- with night stick or gun.

It was understood that a situation might require you to start at any point. You may have to start with Deadly force, depending on the situation. But you start with the lowest level that is justified.

I'm satisfied with Texas Sky's response, sounds just like the advise the NRA gives.

 

[Bunyon]

"You "Pop a cap" into someone---it isn't like TV---you kill someone with your firearm---you will never be able to just "walk off" like nothin' happened---neither physically nor mentally----you just "believe" that you will have "satisfaction" with the perpatrator dead---but once you realize your victim is dead---or you watch him "gaspin'" for air----you will go to your grave tramitized by that one event---that cartridge that cost you $1.00---will probably cost you your sanity---not to count the endless barrage of questions you'll have to answer the police and the attorney and the judge."-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Man is right. -mostly ...Carrying a concealed weapon is not for everyone. If you are going to carry, you better darn sure be confident and prepared. Be mentally and physically prepared. Pracitce mental scenarios and shooting scenarios. These things are covered in the training course that is required in my state. But I can assure you will not loose much sleep if you use your weapon properly in self defense. I had to watch as the perp went in to shock and died of the chest wound I gave him. But the other two cops and I lived. I have never lost a moments sleep over it. And I feel quite satisfied.

When I was a cop in the academy one thing they tought us was not to pull your weapon any time there was a threat. If you pull it during a mere verbal argument, and the guy decides to wrestle with you, you would probalbly not be justified to shoot, but now you have to fight one handed with a gun that could be taken away and used againt you. Drawing a weapon is truely a last resort.

But Blackbird, I could just say the same thing you did like this. If BTK entered you house and raped and killed your wife and daughter, you will be just as traumatized and bothered for life as some idiot who used a firearm inappropriately. Yet if I killed BTK and saved my family, I would not loose a moments sleep.

The one time I did have to kill in self defense tought me two things. 1- I do not ever want to have to do it again 2- I will do it again without hesitation if I have to.