Are translations inspired?

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
b]Now see, this is what I'm talking about, what authority do you base godly man on?

[/b]Easy ... the authority of the text. Read the Psalm and tell us what the psalmist is talking about. Let's take a look:

Psalm 12:1 For the choir director; upon an eight-stringed lyre. A Psalm of David. Help, LORD, for the godly man ceases to be, For the faithful disappear from among the sons of men. 2 They speak falsehood to one another; With flattering lips and with a double heart they speak. 3 May the LORD cut off all flattering lips, The tongue that speaks great things; 4 Who have said, "With our tongue we will prevail; Our lips are our own; who is lord over us?" 5 "Because of the devastation of the afflicted, because of the groaning of the needy, Now I will arise," says the LORD; "I will set him in the safety for which he longs." 6 The words of the LORD are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times. 7 You, O LORD, will keep them; You will preserve him from this generation forever. 8 The wicked strut about on every side When vileness is exalted among the sons of men.

All of the highlighted portions refer to the theme of the Psalm ... the perishing of the godly man. The Psalmist appeals to God's promises as the proof that God will preserve the godly man. If you change the meaning of the Psalm as you have, then you have no reassuring promise for the psalmist.

The meaning of the text is always determined by context. This is a simple matter of exegesis ... look at the Psalm and see what it is talking about. See who is in danger and then see who is being preserved.

ScottJ said, "God did not preserve His words- Period." Page 6

Perhaps Scott will explain what he meant. It would be very hard to say that God didn't preserve his word since we have it in over 5000 manuscripts in the NT, a host of evidence in the OT, and many good and faithful translations in many languages. If God didn't preserve it, how in the world do we have it??

Do you have something negative to say about every KJB believer?

[/qb]No. Hyles was a man about whom everything I said can be verified. The Bible gives qualifications for pastors. He violated those. The Bible calls us to stand up against sin and warn people of error. An elder is to be rebuked in the presence of all so that the rest may fear (1 Tim 5). There is your biblical basis for what I have done.

I believe the Bible is correct when it says it will preserve them (words).

[/qb]HELLO!!!! Are you listening?? The Bible in Psa 12:6-7 does not say that he will preserve the words. Repeated denial will not change it. He said he would preserve the godly man. That is what the Psalm is about. You can get out your Hebrew text and see what it says, or you can take the word of those who know for it.

Funny, this is what I think you are doing.

But what's the difference? What I am teaching conforms to what Scripture teaches. What you are teaching does not. The text of truth is not personal opinion and personal preference. It is Scripture. The Scriptures teach exactly what I am teaching. Therefore, I am not teaching falsely by teh standard of God's word.

 

[RaptureReady]

Psalms 12:1 Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
3 The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

The highlighted areas are the theme behind this chapter.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
The highlighted areas are the theme behind this chapter. [/QB]

Why are you adding to the Scriptures by bolding them? How shameful?

Pastor Larry is correct. You've blatantly ignored the meaning of this psalm.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />ScottJ said, "God did not preserve His words- Period." Page 6

Perhaps Scott will explain what he meant. It would be very hard to say that God didn't preserve his word since we have it in over 5000 manuscripts in the NT, a host of evidence in the OT, and many good and faithful translations in many languages. If God didn't preserve it, how in the world do we have it??</font>[/QUOTE] OK... God did not preserve a single set of words down throught history in Greek, Hebrew, or any other language. He preserved 5000+ copies and 12000+ ancient translations that all disagree with each other's wording at some point or another.

I believe He did preserve His Word. For that matter, I believe the original wording does exist within the whole of the evidence. What I don't believe is simply what the evidence disproves. Namely, I do not believe that God's Word is limited to a single set of human words in any language.

As Pastor Larry has shown several times, the Bible itself demonstrates that things other than the KJV can rightly be called the Word of God.

In this particular case, some things different are the same. Not the same in wording but in meaning.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
Psalms 12:1 Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
3 The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

The highlighted areas are the theme behind this chapter.

Notice how you have equated the words of evil men with the words of God. Sorry ... that doesn't work. The Psalm says what it does and no amount of verbiage on your part will change that. Submit your mind and your theology to Scripture. Quit doing it your own way.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
In other words, you don't have an intelligent response and must resort to meaningless, argumentative blather.

Sorry, but these versions have done nothing but discourage the believer in his walk with Christ. How? They have caused the believer to deny God's word.</font>[/QUOTE] Please cite your proof that MV's have been the cause of anyone being discouraged or denying God's Word.

I have never attended a church that used a version besides the KJV. I can think of several people who simply didn't read the Bible at all because they couldn't understand the KJV and had been convinced that MV's were the work of Satan, liberal, evil, counterfeits,... (fill in the blank with your lie of choice). I have also seen a few escape their fears, use an MV, and see spiritual growth.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God did not preserve His words- Period.

Sounds to me that your problem is not with me, but with God. </font>[/QUOTE] It is with you until you provide a single manuscript that you can prove is an exact facsimile of the originals and that somehow the KJV translators were divinely empowered to produce a perfect translation... woops, maybe I should say the revisers of 1769 or 1762 produced the perfect form.

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Even if your mis-use of scripture were legitimate (which it isn't), nothing in these verses says anything about the KJV or any other translation or specific copies of the scriptures in the original languages.

Your stretched interpretation of this passage requires that God either divinely and directly identify for each generation which words are His or else that He is lying. You nor anyone else can point to one Hebrew or Greek manuscript that is identical to the original. If cannot accomplish this relatively simple proof, why should I believe that the Anglicans were divinely chose to make God's Word perfect in English?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
[QB] Psalms 12:1 Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
3 The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

Here is a step-by-step account of the Psalm...

In the first verse, the author is crying out to God because all of the godly men are gone.
In the second verse, the author says that the the people are lying and speaking with a forked tongue.
In the third verse, the author states that he is sure that God will cause such language by these men to cease.
In the fourth verse, the author states that these men were saying that their speech manages the world.
In the fifth verse, the author states that God has said that he would protect the poor and needy from such people.
In the sixth verse, the author states that God's words, as opposed to the speech spoken by the men, is pure and truthful.
In the seventh verse, the author says that the poor, needy, and God-fearing (a remnant) would be protected, echoing the fifth verse, even when, as he adds in the eighth verse, wicked people are all around.

The inclusion of the sixth verse is in response to the words of the vile and ungodly. The seventh verse completes the thought of the fifth verse. Otherwise, verse 8 makes absolutely no sense at all.

 

[Askjo]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Translations are not inspired. Translations are just that: Translations.

They are translations of manuscripts that are copies of inspired texts. Some translations are more accurate than others, but, due to variances in linguistic verbage, there is no perfect translation, nor is there any one translations that is authoritative over any other translation.

Translation is what God preserved His inspired Words in your mother tongue Book.

 

[Askjo]

Originally posted by MV-neverist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The Book of Exodus was breathed out by God in Hebrew, not Egyptian.

But Moses and Pharoah spoke Egyptian.
</font>[/QUOTE]I agree.

 

[Askjo]

Originally posted by HomeBound:

Originally posted by aefting:
[qb]

The reason I asked you is, I sometimes have a hard time understanding how a person can be saved and deny God's word. This is just a question that I have and if you can answer, please do.

This questions that you gave them refer to John 5:46-47. This verses are the *key* evidence reflecting W/H and Metzger as an example.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Askjo:
Translation is what God preserved His inspired Words in your mother tongue Book.

Askjo, Are you related to Yogi Berra?

In other words, what in the world did you mean by this sentence?

 

[Askjo]

Originally posted by timothy 1769:
if the translations of conversations and letters contained in scripture are truly inspired, then they must perfectly give the sense the originals, otherwise the bible would contain errors in it's historical narratives.

you have to accept the reality of perfect translations, or concede that the bible contains errors of fact in it's historical narratives.

God perfectly preserved His words in apographs what these translators imperfectly preserved in accurate Bible translations such as KJV, Olivetan Bible, Luther's Bible and others. If I am wrong, Timothy, please explain clearly and plainly.

 

[Ransom]

ScottEmerson said:

The inclusion of the sixth verse is in response to the words of the vile and ungodly. The seventh verse completes the thought of the fifth verse.

No no no. In the sixth and seventh verse, the subject is the preserving the perfect Word of God for the English-speaking peoples, the King James Bible.

If you don't see anything about God's perfectly preserved word for the English-speaking peoples, the King James Bible, in there, or you don't see any reason why the subject should suddenly change from the plight of the godly to the preservation of the Word and then suddenly change back, then perhaps you are not reading the Scriptures with faith, but with unbelief.

Don't bring sound exegesis and reason into this argument. Logic is of the devil. Just have faith.

 

[Askjo]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HomeBound:

So since the originals are gone, so is God’s pure word, right?

No. The inspired (pure) words are gone but we very much have the pure Word. </font>[/QUOTE]The words, "judgment seat of Christ" in the autograph that was gone after apographs started. Polycarp, a disciple of the Apostle John, witnessed that phrase, "judgment seat of Christ" from one of the autographs. This shows this phrase that Polycarp witnessed, agreed with the KJV because the wording of the autograph identified with the wording in the KJV. EXACT! However modern versions changed from "Christ" to "God." The KJV has this inspired Words -- gone back to the autograph. Modern versions are gone back to corrupted MSS, not autographs.

 

[Askjo]

Originally posted by Refreshed:
So the final answer is?

Can translations be inspired? Yes. Faithful translations are the inspired Word of God.

Is the real question one of derived inspiration vs. primary inspiration?

Jason

Double inspirations????

 

[Askjo]

 

[Askjo]

Originally posted by Ransom:
HomeBound said:

Sorry, but they [the KJV translators] were saved.

Really? I've never seen a salvation testimony from any of them.

Logic of faith!

 

[Askjo]

Originally posted by Ransom:

Except that Psalm 12:7 has nothing to do with preserving God's Word; rather it is a promise that God will preserve his people "from this [wicked] generation forever." [/QB]

Incorrect translation of your own!

 

[Ransom]

Askjo said:

Logic of faith!

Yes, we all know what the "logic of faith" is.

According to the "logic of faith":

</font>

1. The KJV translators were saved despite leaving no salvation testimonies.</font>
2. Westcott and Hort were unsaved because they left no salvation testimonies.</font>

In other words, it's another term for "inconsistency."

You gotta laugh.

 

[Ransom]

Askjo said:

Incorrect translation of your own!

No, it is a correct paraphrase.

ScottEmerson and Pastor Larry both rightly divided this Psalm only a few posts ago, and I merely summarized the same interpretation.

Neither you, nor any other KJV-onlyist, has even tried to refute this interpretation. I take this silence to indicate inability, and claim victory.

So until you are ready to provide a sound exegesis of Psalm 12 supporting the KJV-onlyist view of vv. 6-7, I am going to treat it with all the respect it deserves, which is this: