Are we born spiritually dead?

[William C]

Originally posted by npetreley:

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
[qb]It is impossible for you to make an argument without taking jabs is'nt it?

Well, I see you finally came around! The only way it could be impossible is if I am inclined to take jabs, and must follow my inclination. That would mean I do not have free will with respect to taking jabs. So for you to say that it is impossible for me to make an argument without taking jabs is to admit that calvinists are right. I'm glad you finally admit the truth.

You got me there.

But of course for this argument to carry its weight we must also assume you are still Totally Depraved and have not been set free in Christ.

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Boy that really sounds like that would apply to non-believers too. Are they not tempted by their own desires and does that not bring forth death?

To say unbelievers are tempted by their own desires would be to play down their condition. Unbelievers live by their own desires, because they are slaves to them. And, no, that does not bring forth death. Unbelievers are already dead.

Who does the tempting? That's the question James is asking and answering here. According to your system its God, for he is the one who imputes death to all because of one mans sin causing all to sin. James says God doesn't even tempt man to sin, your system asserts that he is the cause of it. That is a contradiction.

Do you know of any scholars who interpret "death" in this passage as physical?

The "give birth" stuff is just more of your debate nonsense. Just because one uses the same figure of speech to express two different points doesn't mean there's a connection between them.

Wow. It is amazing how blinded your system has made you. James uses the same word within two sentences from each other one describing sin giving birth to death and the other contrasting it describing God giving us birth through the word of truth and you don't see any connection.

Sin gives birth to death
Word of Truth gives birth to life

Seems like there is a connection there.

 

[Frogman]

Sin gives birth to death
Word of Truth gives birth to life

Seems like there is a connection there.

There you have it; I guess arguing with yourself does pay off

Sin gives birth to death...hummm

Man is born with a sin nature...hummm

Man is born...spiritually dead....Amen

Bro. Dallas

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Sin gives birth to death
Word of Truth gives birth to life

Seems like there is a connection there.

There you have it; I guess arguing with yourself does pay off

Sin gives birth to death...hummm

Man is born with a sin nature...hummm

Man is born...spiritually dead....Amen

Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah, as I stated in my other post that is what I have always believed, but the question I asked still hasn't really been answered.

"Sin gives birth to death", doesn't necessarily mean everyone is born spritually dead.

Is this possible:
1. Man is born with a sin nature
2. The sin nature and its evil desires causes man to sin
3. When sin is full grown it causes the man to die (as in being hardened in sin)

What I'm trying to show is that the term "death" may be used as an analogy describing one who allowed sin to reign in his body for a period of time as we can see in James. This same analogy could be used by Paul in Eph. 2.

This finding is not necessary to support Arminianism, I just found it interesting is all.

 

[The Archangel]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by The Archangel:
Bill,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Calvinist often use Eph. 2 as proof that we are dead from birth and thus unable to respond, which I reject and have argued the reasons many times. But it seems to me that the use of the word death in Eph. 2 is much more related to the use in James 1, don't you think?

Absolutly not. Why? The words in greek are different.

James 1 uses the word thanaton (Death; be struck a deadly blow; leading to death; near death; in danger of death) </font>[/QUOTE]That's not what I found: Here is the definiations from several lexicons:

1) the death of the body

a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended

b) with the implied idea of future misery in hell

1) the power of death

c) since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin

2) metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name,

a) the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell

3) the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell

4) in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell

The most conclusive evidence that your intepretation is wrong is the fact that the greek word "thanaton" is used in Rom. 5:21 which I'm sure you would say means "spiritual death" that comes from the imputation of Adam's sin.

Ephesians 2 uses the word Nekros (Dead; lifeless; a dead person; corps; useless, ineffective)

Nekros:
1) properly

a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless

b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell

c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate

2) metaph.

a) spiritually dead

1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins

2) inactive as respects doing right

b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

Your entire premise about these words being related is wrong. Each have their own range of useage. They are probably not synonyms.

Similarly, if we are to take "Nekros" as analogous, we would also have to take the same word, as it relates to Jesus' death, etc. the same way. Now, I don't think you want to say that Jesus' death was an analogy...do you?

Now, Angel you contradict your own reasoning. You say that each have there own range of useage. I believe both of these words are are used in reference to Jesus' death. Does that mean that neither of these words can be used metaphorically or as analogies? Just like in our English language we have the words "dead" and "deceased." Either one of these words can be used metaphorically or as an analogy to help people gain a understanding of some point.

Again, you may try to derail our "Dead" arguements from Eph 2. However, you cannot do it using the above-quoted analogy. It simply is not allowed by the greek text.

Your speaking as an authority on the greek language, as if you are absolutely certain that "Nekros" can be used in anyother context except literally being "dead."

Do you stand by that testimony or do I need to prove it wrong?

God Bless. </font>[/QUOTE]I never claimed to be a greek authority. I simply said that the two words that you were comparing were different words.

My arguement against your arguement of analogy was not based on the greek. It was however, based on the idea that death is not used as an analogy. You want to apply the analogy to Eph. 2:1. However, the range of this word (Nekros, in this case) is not used as an analogy in the other uses.

I'm sorry if I confused you.

Blessings,

Archangel

 

[William C]

Angel you wrote:

Similarly, if we are to take "Nekros" as analogous, we would also have to take the same word, as it relates to Jesus' death, etc. the same way. Now, I don't think you want to say that Jesus' death was an analogy...do you?

Again, you may try to derail our "Dead" arguements from Eph 2. However, you cannot do it using the above-quoted analogy. It simply is not allowed by the greek text.

It sure sounds like you are arguing that the greek language does not allow me to use the word "nekros" in an analogy. Is that what you are saying?

That is kind of like saying the English word dead means dead and can't ever be used as an example or an analogy for anything else.

James says faith without works is Nekros. That's an analogy meaning that faith that doesn't lead to works is not faith that saves. It's an analogy to show a point. Does that mean we should take faith that doesn't work put it in a coffen and bury it? Of course not. Faith is not dead in the exact same manner that a man is dead, its just a comparitive analogy. Dead faith is faith that doesn't produce works. Does this mean that the audience James is speaking to could never produce works or have a saving faith? I don't think so, he is writing to the church for the purpose of encouraging their obeidence.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />To say unbelievers are tempted by their own desires would be to play down their condition. Unbelievers live by their own desires, because they are slaves to them. And, no, that does not bring forth death. Unbelievers are already dead.

Who does the tempting? That's the question James is asking and answering here. According to your system its God, for he is the one who imputes death to all because of one mans sin causing all to sin. James says God doesn't even tempt man to sin, your system asserts that he is the cause of it. That is a contradiction.</font>[/QUOTE]I have to say this one is for the refrigerator.

What I said: Unbelievers live by their desires, are slaves to them, and are already dead.

Your analysis: Who does the tempting? That's the question James is asking and answering here. According to your system its God, for he is the one who imputes death to all because of one mans sin causing all to sin.

So, when I say that unbelievers live by their desires and are already dead, you counter it with the assertion that God must therefore tempt people because He imputed death to all as a result of Adam's sin. Can you tell me what hallucinogenics I have to take in order to see how your assertion makes any sense, and what possible connection it has to my statement or James?

 

[William C]

Originally posted by npetreley:
Can you tell me what hallucinogenics I have to take in order to see how your assertion makes any sense, and what possible connection it has to my statement or James?

Well, since I've met you Nick I've started on LSD but that got expensive so I've gone to just drinking a bottle of NyQuil before I get on the board. It really has helped me deal with the headaches and ulsers you were causing me. Now, I'm always happy.

I love you man!

 

[Frogman]

Bro. Bill,

Would you agree that a man who as outwardly as we can tell, being born with a sin nature, yet living carefully and morally all of his life, will yet die?

Bro. Dallas

 

[William C]

I guess that depends on what type of death your talking about.

Again, Dallas, let me remind you that I have always believed man is born spiritually dead as I stated in the first post. I'm only trying to find the connection to death and birth (as I have explained).

 

[Frogman]

in the one you live the world, in the other you are granted by the Grace of God, a life in this world.

I do not understand your question...sorry.

The Bible says when we are saved we pass from death to life. I guess this is enough for me to know that an unregenerated individual is spiritually dead until life is granted.

If you can explain your question (not better) but to where I can understand maybe I can help...maybe not...but I will try.

Bro. Dallas

 

[William C]

Really the purpose of this post was to exaimine how the word "dead" is used to discribe our condition.

It could be used to describe our spiritual condition from birth.

It also can be used to descibe our hardened condition in sin. (I think Harald alluded to this)

It also can be used to descibe our eternal state as death is used in contrast with eternal life. (Some call this the second death)

Etc. etc.

My quest was to find where death is refered to as being from birth. As you have pointed out one must be dead in order to be made alive which is why I believe that we all die. But the Bible also teaches that we all sin, so it could be argued (as it is by some) that we don't die until we actually sin. I was trying to find support for and against that view. I hope that clarifies my quest. Thanks

 

[The Archangel]

Bill,

It sure sounds like you are arguing that the greek language does not allow me to use the word "nekros" in an analogy. Is that what you are saying?

I think so. Here is why: Thanatos (death)
-every form of it in the NT treated not as a natural process but always as a destroying power related to sin and its consequences; (1) physically, as the separation of soul fr. body (physical) death (JN 11.13); (2) as a legal t.t., of capital punishment (physical) death (MT 26.66); (3) spiritually, as the separation of soul fr. God (opp. zwh,v (spiritual) death (JN 5.24; JA 1.15); (4) spiritually, as the separation of soul fr. spirit, or fr. the possibility of knowing God, as the result of judgment (eternal) death (RO 1.32); called the second death in RV 2.11; 20.6 et al; (5) by meton. deadly disease, pestilence (RV 6.8).

Ok, as you might imagine, that is not my work. This is from a lexicon....it begins with an "F" but the name escapes me because...DUH...I forgot to write it down.

James says faith without works is Nekros. That's an analogy meaning that faith that doesn't lead to works is not faith that saves. It's an analogy to show a point. Does that mean we should take faith that doesn't work put it in a coffen and bury it? Of course not. Faith is not dead in the exact same manner that a man is dead, its just a comparitive analogy. Dead faith is faith that doesn't produce works. Does this mean that the audience James is speaking to could never produce works or have a saving faith? I don't think so, he is writing to the church for the purpose of encouraging their obeidence.

Here is what Louw and Nida say about one of the uses of Nekros (I'm placing this here to defend the spiritual inability spoken of in Eph. 2:1):
-Nekrosertaining to being unable to respond to any impulse or to perform some function - 'unable, ineffective, dead, powerless

and

'we who were dead because of our sins, (God) brought to life through Christ' Eph 2.5. Since the reference in Eph 2.5 (see also Eph 2.1) is to matters relating to God, one may translate 'we who were unable to respond to matters relating to God because of our sins ...' or 'we who were spiritually dead ...'

Now, I don't know about you but I think that this closes the case. If nekros is used, it would seem that it is intentionally not used as an analogy (UNLESS the word "Like" or somehting else similar is used in conjuction with it).

It would seem that thanatos is much more apt to be used as the figurative sense of the word "death" because it is used to speak, not of a literal death, but as a destroying power related to sin and its consequences.

Similarly, nekros is also used as "Dead," "Useless," or "Ineffective." So, the interpretation of Eph 2:1ff is right-on when arguing total depravity/total inability.

Eph. 2:1 is teaching that we are totally unable to respond to the Gospel without being first regenerated.

Have a good night!

Blessings,

Archangel