are we generating a false revival?

[nodak]

Got one of those catalogues from a seller of just about all things Christendom this week. They are fun to flip through!

But I was thinking about what I saw:

books designed to lead to a sort of close encounter of the third kind with God--almost promising thrills and goosebumps.

music designed to create specific emotional states: seductive music, martial music, etc.

lots of books all but guaranteeing your church will double or triple in size if you follow this or that formula for success.

All stuff that is selling like hotcakes and very very popular.

But after flipping through it, I started wondering where God is in all this?

So here's the question up for brighter minds than mine to debate:

In using any form of music designed specifically to create a mood, or in using sentimental tear jerker stories or exciting hero type stories instead of expounding Scripture, or in following the latest management plan of church growth, do we produce true converts, or do we produce false converts and thus a false revival?

What think ye?

 

[freeatlast]

Got one of those catalogues from a seller of just about all things Christendom this week. They are fun to flip through!

But I was thinking about what I saw:

books designed to lead to a sort of close encounter of the third kind with God--almost promising thrills and goosebumps.

music designed to create specific emotional states: seductive music, martial music, etc.

lots of books all but guaranteeing your church will double or triple in size if you follow this or that formula for success.

All stuff that is selling like hotcakes and very very popular.

But after flipping through it, I started wondering where God is in all this?

So here's the question up for brighter minds than mine to debate:

In using any form of music designed specifically to create a mood, or in using sentimental tear jerker stories or exciting hero type stories instead of expounding Scripture, or in following the latest management plan of church growth, do we produce true converts, or do we produce false converts and thus a false revival?

What think ye?

Yes without question we manufacture false revivals. Though I could certainly use one I have never been in one or met anyone who really has. I often ask pastors if they have ever been in a real revival and to date no one has said yes. While most churches have called revival there is no evidence that they really take place. Mostly a bunch of hype and the people return to normal the next day or at most within a week. Real revivals happen only when the Spirit directs them, not when churches call them, and real revivals are rare sad to say.

 

[sag38]

Shoe on the other foot: I've also met some anti-technology, anti-music (execpt what they deemed to be Biblical), anti-anything that didn't fit thier paticular view who were just as deceived.

 

[HAMel]

h...or do we produce false converts and thus a false revival?

...yep! No doubt about it.

 

[Salty]

...do we produce true converts, or do we produce false converts and thus a false revival?

Many times we do - but I don't think music is the culprit. Yes, music may have an effect on you to come forward - but - its what happens after you walk the aisle. Does the individual just fill out a card or does a (real) counselor take you to a side room and individually explain the plan of salvation? Often we do not know if the person actually understands the Romans road-map, 4 spiritual laws, or ect.
Now, if the pastor went on visitation on Thursdays night and spent an hour with a couple and they fully understood and both individually accepted the Lord, then on Sunday they went forwarded and "filled" out a card - thats fine - as long as the pastor is assured of their decision. The purpose of that is to make public their decision.

Music does make us behave in certain ways - if it gets us to walk forward - fine - but do we as Christian leaders follow thur...

 

[ituttut]

Got one of those catalogues from a seller of just about all things Christendom this week. They are fun to flip through!

Pardon length nodak , got carried away rejoicing in His Word.

I doubt I'm any brighter than you, but submit you asked the right question, where is God in all this?

From what I gather in what you present, there is a heap of man in this, making fatuous claims that are known to turn the heads of certain Christians, and whole churches. The famous saying "there's a sucker born every minute" would seem to fit the bill here.

May be some decent stuff in there, but not any that lure one to believe a certain program, presentation of words, or music is the Magic Formula. The "itching ear" syndrome affects many of us, until we get out of the babe stage, which you seem to have done .

A supplement please:
I cannot find in His Word that a successful Christian church must be one with many members, and certainly not a huge church. We saved should be satisfied that we belong to the only Church that counts, and it is humongous. After the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body Of Christ Church, we then join with Christians that think along the same lines as we.

Peter tells us in his second book to his people, 3rd chapter verse 15. "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." We Gentiles today do not need to find the gospel of Christ Jesus revealed to Paul as confusing as those from the loins of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We all should be looking up, instead of worrying about numbers, and music. The greatest music ever, from one created by God is our adversary, i.e.Satan… His pipes are awesome.

 

[SolaSaint]

I attended a Seeker Church for a few years that was sold out on entertaining and thrilling the audience into making a decision. I feel that some of those who made decisions were sincere and I'll assume they were saved. However I feel the most part just joined a club or were caught up in their emotions. For me I couldn't stay for I felt accountable for what I taught and supported. I feel we must be very sure of what we teach and preach and I feel most seeker methods are not concerned about doctrine, or at least correct doctrine. My heart aches at those who are decieved into a false confession. How terrible this is.

 

[Salty]

... I feel most seeker methods are not concerned about doctrine, or at least correct doctrine. ...

I would agree, in fact many of these folks would say "doctrine does not matter as long as you believe in Christ". My standard answer - well the Mormons also believe in Christ....
Yes Doctrine does matter, and our churches need to be teaching it accordingly

 

[nodak]

salty, sag38, don't make this about music, please.

That is only a part of the question. The whole package includes mood inducing music, yes, but also as some have mentioned the "tell'em what they want hear" sort of preaching and teaching, and what I question most is the idea that if we just follow this or that leader's techniques we are guaranteed success.

If you are reformed, you might want to argue with that idea. After all, if you minister in a town with few unharvested elect no matter what formula you follow, folks won't get saved.

And if you are arminian, well, those same folks do get to exercise free will. Nothing you can do takes that away from them.

Just seems to me real revival comes from God, not Madison Ave.

And seems to me God defines success differently than we do. We count noses--more noses, must be more successful and more pleasing to God.

When I read the Bible it seems to me God counts success as walking with Him and obeying Him, period.

Whether or not that means more backsides on the pews is really up to Him.

 

[ichthys]

If man generates it, then it's not real revival. It won't last, it might result in some good feelings, which is man's goal, but it won't result in true transformation, which is God's goal. Only what God makes lasts.

 

[HAMel]

In MHO, keeping in mind I hold no any Doctorate Degree, it seems the roots of a real revival can be traced back to those who start out on their knees in expectation of the Lord causing something big to happen.

Should a revival break out because of any sleek marketing efforts on the part of a local church we could tell the Lord..., "...boy, look what (we) did for you. Ain't (we) sumptin?"

First though, said believers would need to examine and purge themselves.

 

[Tom Butler]

A few years ago, a prominent Southern Baptist evangelist guaranteed conversions during his revivals.

For some reason, he removed that guarantee from his website. Wonder what happened?

 

[Tom Butler]

In MHO, keeping in mind I hold no any Doctorate Degree, it seems the roots of a real revival can be traced back to those who start out on their knees in expectation of the Lord causing something big to happen.

Should a revival break out because of any sleek marketing efforts on the part of a local church we could tell the Lord..., "...boy, look what (we) did for you. Ain't (we) sumptin?"

First though, said believers would need to examine and purge themselves.

Maybe we ought to ask why we don't do the same thing in preparation for next Sunday's services. Or ask why we don't have the same expectation of something big this Sunday?

 

[kyredneck]

Got one of those catalogues from a seller of just about all things Christendom this week. They are fun to flip through!

But I was thinking about what I saw:

books designed to lead to a sort of close encounter of the third kind with God--almost promising thrills and goosebumps.

music designed to create specific emotional states: seductive music, martial music, etc.

lots of books all but guaranteeing your church will double or triple in size if you follow this or that formula for success.

All stuff that is selling like hotcakes and very very popular.

But after flipping through it, I started wondering where God is in all this?

So here's the question up for brighter minds than mine to debate:

In using any form of music designed specifically to create a mood, or in using sentimental tear jerker stories or exciting hero type stories instead of expounding Scripture, or in following the latest management plan of church growth, do we produce true converts, or do we produce false converts and thus a false revival?

What think ye?

Eerily reminiscent of Kabbalism/Mysticism.

 

[HAMel]

Maybe we ought to ask why we don't do the same thing in preparation for next Sunday's services. Or ask why we don't have the same expectation of something big this Sunday?

I did ask. At a recent mens breakfast I suggested the Deacon's introduce a week long prayer of the members. The idea was that if members of the church would dedicate just 10 minutes of prayer in their respective closets we might see the list of those needing to be healed and/or "that long list" of family members needing Salvation, we might begin to see results.

...let me tell you, one could have concluded that X-Lax was mixed in with the scrambled eggs. So much for that suggestion..., and needless to say I haven't been invited to speak since and those two respective lists continue to grow.

 

[Tom Bryant]

I don't know of anyone who is describing what is happening in America as revival.

As others have said, revival isn't built up it is prayed down after a time of repentence and prayer.

That's one of the problems with Sunday thru Wednesday meetings that are misnamed as revivals. There is not enough time to really begin to call upon Christians to pray and seek God. But I am afraid that most churches would not allow a 2 or 3 week series of meetings that can be the start of a God sent revival.

 

[Tom Butler]

As others have said, revival isn't built up it is prayed down after a time of repentance and prayer.

You're right, real revival isn't worked up. I'm wondering, though, if the time of repentance and prayer isn't the result of God's pouring out his Spirit on us first.

I'm testing my memory here, but isn't that what happened in the First and Second Great Awakenings? Those revivals were not confined to one congregation, or denomination or geographical area. They spread like wildfire, almost is if they had a life of their own. Seems to me that those revivals produced repentance instead of being the result of repentance.

Either way, revival appears to be a sovereign act of God. But I also agree that repentance, prayer and revival go together.

 

[Salty]

...Either way, revival appears to be a sovereign act of God. But I also agree that repentance, prayer and revival go together.

I remember years ago,we had a revival at Calvary Bap in Zweibruecken. For two weeks prior, we were asked to pray for a half hour each day, at a set time. The church had set up a prayer board with time increments of 30 minutes each. (Would have been great if 48 different folks each had a different 30 minute time) Of course 7-10 pm time slots went quickly. I chose 300 am myself. I found that by taking an "inconvenient" time, it indicated complete dedication and the prayer time was that much more a blessing.
Salty

 

[nodak]

salty-many years ago in Wyoming the church I was part of was holding a "revival". We spent weeks in advance preparing our hearts. During the revival time itself we also did the 24 hour prayer down at the church in half hour slots. I had small children so took a day slot.

My uncle was dying in a hospital down in Texas, unsaved.

I asked prayer for him on one specific night, then called him the next morning to hopefully share Christ.

The nurse put him on the phone. He was happy to talk to me, and excited that the night before he had not been able to sleep. Lying there in the dark he had "experienced hell firsthand" in his words. Wanted no more of it and accepted Christ....all on his own.

I told him about our church praying and the two of us had a joyous time of praising God.

Didn't involve Madison Ave at all.

 

[Jim1999]

In all this discussion about revival everyone talks about people being "saved" or not "saved".

Will you please stepout of the USA for a moment define the word "revival". The consider the Welsh revivals and what happened. The word revival does not mean saved, it means revive. We are seeking a revival of those who know Christ, but perhaps have become lethargic...this is revival,not an evangelistic service.

Cheers,

Jim