freeatlast
New Member
Exactly!:thumbsup:
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are we generating a false revival?
- Thread starter nodak
- Start date
Exactly!:thumbsup:
O LORD, I have heard your speech and was afraid; O LORD, revive Your work in the midst of the years! In the midst of the years make it known; In wrath remember mercy. (Habakkuk 3:2)
Only God can restore life to something that has died. If you find that your heart has grown cold to God, that the spiritual life of your family or church has waned, call out to God to revive you, for only He can give life. It is not your activity but your relationship with God that brings life!
Spiritual fervor can ebb if left unattended. We all begin our walk with the Lord enthusiastically, with an excited sense of anticipation. But over time, busyness creeps in. We become distracted and let our sin go unchallenged. We may take our relationship with God for granted and not notice the gradual decline until we find ourselves drained of spiritual vitality.
This descent can happen in your church just as it does in your personal life. Do you remember a time when the Holy Spirit was moving mightily in your church, and the members sensed God leading in an exciting direction? Are the services now lifeless and the power of God only a memory?
At a time like this it is futile to try to bring back life yourself. You can organize many activities and exhort those around you, but only God can resurrect what is dead. If God has initiated something in your life, or family, or church, only He can sustain it or revive it. If you sense that the spiritual vigor has gone out of your life or the life of your church, this is God’s invitation to pray. He wants you to intercede with Him so that He might revive His work. Jesus said that He is Life. It is unnecessary to remain spiritually lifeless when He has promised vibrant, abundant life if you will claim it.
www.studytheword.citymax.com
Only God can restore life to something that has died. If you find that your heart has grown cold to God, that the spiritual life of your family or church has waned, call out to God to revive you, for only He can give life. It is not your activity but your relationship with God that brings life!
Spiritual fervor can ebb if left unattended. We all begin our walk with the Lord enthusiastically, with an excited sense of anticipation. But over time, busyness creeps in. We become distracted and let our sin go unchallenged. We may take our relationship with God for granted and not notice the gradual decline until we find ourselves drained of spiritual vitality.
This descent can happen in your church just as it does in your personal life. Do you remember a time when the Holy Spirit was moving mightily in your church, and the members sensed God leading in an exciting direction? Are the services now lifeless and the power of God only a memory?
At a time like this it is futile to try to bring back life yourself. You can organize many activities and exhort those around you, but only God can resurrect what is dead. If God has initiated something in your life, or family, or church, only He can sustain it or revive it. If you sense that the spiritual vigor has gone out of your life or the life of your church, this is God’s invitation to pray. He wants you to intercede with Him so that He might revive His work. Jesus said that He is Life. It is unnecessary to remain spiritually lifeless when He has promised vibrant, abundant life if you will claim it.
www.studytheword.citymax.com
I believe the biblical concept of what we call "revival" is better described as "renewal".
It is an ongoing thing, "awakening" and "revival" become necessary when we quench the Spirit of renewal by walking after the flesh, becoming oblivious to the needs of our souls.
Ephesians 4
Colossians 3
HankD
It is an ongoing thing, "awakening" and "revival" become necessary when we quench the Spirit of renewal by walking after the flesh, becoming oblivious to the needs of our souls.
2 Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
Ephesians 4
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
Colossians 3
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
HankD
Tom Butler
New Member
I'm just curious.
How many of you have attended scheduled revivals that weren't?
In your scheduled revivals, what did your church do different from your Sunday services? Why?
When you have "special services," what sets them apart from ordinary services? What makes them special? (I think sometimes we call them special because they're not on Sunday.)
Are your expectations for your scheduled revival different from your expectations for this Sunday morning? If so, why?
Does anybody see a problem with "scheduling" revival?
How many of you have attended scheduled revivals that weren't?
In your scheduled revivals, what did your church do different from your Sunday services? Why?
When you have "special services," what sets them apart from ordinary services? What makes them special? (I think sometimes we call them special because they're not on Sunday.)
Are your expectations for your scheduled revival different from your expectations for this Sunday morning? If so, why?
Does anybody see a problem with "scheduling" revival?
The Welsh revivals started in a church when the pastor entered the pulpit, but could not preach. He couldn't utter a word. One member broke out in song and all joined in. Soon after, members began to confess their failings, their sins and their love one for the other. Yes, some confessed Christ as Saviour, but the key emphasis was on the believers getting right with God and with each other.
This spread to other churches at the same time. It had not been advertised as such, but word did spread, and the people responded.
Some say that calvinistic people lack emotion and a general call to people to repent and believe on Jesus, but these churches were calvinistic in theology. So, that dispells this myth.
We could sure use revival to-day, and we need to pray constantly for this. Perhaps we need more pastors who are tongue-tied and members who can break out in song.
Cheers,
Jim
This spread to other churches at the same time. It had not been advertised as such, but word did spread, and the people responded.
Some say that calvinistic people lack emotion and a general call to people to repent and believe on Jesus, but these churches were calvinistic in theology. So, that dispells this myth.
We could sure use revival to-day, and we need to pray constantly for this. Perhaps we need more pastors who are tongue-tied and members who can break out in song.
Cheers,
Jim
glfredrick
New Member
Much of what we now call "revival" started with the efforts of Charles Grandison Finney, who literally invented the American forms of coming to the altar to repent, driven by emotion and convincing speech.
Much has been written since about whether his methods were biblical or not, or whether he tapped into a true movement of God or just manufactured a move of people.
In any case, since Finney, we have a parade of "evangelists" who have criss-crossed the world doing big-event evangelism, but with small actual successes at increasing the number of Christians who worship God and persevere in the faith. Billy Graham, for instance, has about a 2% success ratio. That number may be less than an average preacher who is faithful to proclaim the Scriptures from the pulpit of a local church, albeit, Graham packs stadiums with people, as did his predecessors, Billy Sunday, Dwight Moody, etc.
Have I ever seen a work of God, where multiple people were saved? Yes. But it was not "revival" of the sort that most talk about when that subject comes up. Has it "stuck" in the lives of those saved? Yes. Most, though youth at the time, are now active in vocational ministry. Did we "manufacture the event"? Not really. In fact, it came in a week of youth events that was not going well at all.
Nothing we did really touched the hard-hearted youth at all. We spent two days in fervent prayer and God chose to show up -- almost after the fact -- and started to do a work among those present that we can only attribute to Him. Really horrific singing (by the youth), really horrific preaching (by a man who was evidently not called to be a preacher), and a rather horrific location (hot, sweaty, bugs, etc.). We were just trying to figure out how to close down the session and escape without loosing our crowd. I felt God leading me to share one last word before we dismissed. I really didn't have much of anything meaningful to say, but I did share a couple words of my testimony, then asked if any of the other persons in the room had ever felt like the whole "God business" was just something people did to get the rest of us to follow rules. I asked what it would take for God to be real to us, and I began praying that He would do just that. All I can say is that He did.
It was like a wave in the room. A leader came in tears and repented of a sin that no one would have guessed. One after another of the youth were broken and repenting of sins. One was praying with another all over the room. No music, no leading, no prompting, just God pouring out His Spirit into our souls. This went on for over 2 hours, and after about an hour, some of the people were done with their business, while others were still being led by God to repent and be saved. Those who were finished -- without any adult leadership -- did the most fantastic thing I've ever seen... They went outside the building and began marching around and around, like Joshua and Jericho, they sang songs and prayed that God would work. I WISH I could manufacture events like that!
Like I said, most of those touched that night are now in vocational ministry. I only wish I could repeat that event, but until God moves again, I'll have to live with the memory, and like the Psalmist, praise Him for His mighty deeds and pray that He act again.
Much has been written since about whether his methods were biblical or not, or whether he tapped into a true movement of God or just manufactured a move of people.
In any case, since Finney, we have a parade of "evangelists" who have criss-crossed the world doing big-event evangelism, but with small actual successes at increasing the number of Christians who worship God and persevere in the faith. Billy Graham, for instance, has about a 2% success ratio. That number may be less than an average preacher who is faithful to proclaim the Scriptures from the pulpit of a local church, albeit, Graham packs stadiums with people, as did his predecessors, Billy Sunday, Dwight Moody, etc.
Have I ever seen a work of God, where multiple people were saved? Yes. But it was not "revival" of the sort that most talk about when that subject comes up. Has it "stuck" in the lives of those saved? Yes. Most, though youth at the time, are now active in vocational ministry. Did we "manufacture the event"? Not really. In fact, it came in a week of youth events that was not going well at all.
Nothing we did really touched the hard-hearted youth at all. We spent two days in fervent prayer and God chose to show up -- almost after the fact -- and started to do a work among those present that we can only attribute to Him. Really horrific singing (by the youth), really horrific preaching (by a man who was evidently not called to be a preacher), and a rather horrific location (hot, sweaty, bugs, etc.). We were just trying to figure out how to close down the session and escape without loosing our crowd. I felt God leading me to share one last word before we dismissed. I really didn't have much of anything meaningful to say, but I did share a couple words of my testimony, then asked if any of the other persons in the room had ever felt like the whole "God business" was just something people did to get the rest of us to follow rules. I asked what it would take for God to be real to us, and I began praying that He would do just that. All I can say is that He did.
It was like a wave in the room. A leader came in tears and repented of a sin that no one would have guessed. One after another of the youth were broken and repenting of sins. One was praying with another all over the room. No music, no leading, no prompting, just God pouring out His Spirit into our souls. This went on for over 2 hours, and after about an hour, some of the people were done with their business, while others were still being led by God to repent and be saved. Those who were finished -- without any adult leadership -- did the most fantastic thing I've ever seen... They went outside the building and began marching around and around, like Joshua and Jericho, they sang songs and prayed that God would work. I WISH I could manufacture events like that!
Like I said, most of those touched that night are now in vocational ministry. I only wish I could repeat that event, but until God moves again, I'll have to live with the memory, and like the Psalmist, praise Him for His mighty deeds and pray that He act again.
The times were different Jim, the people were different. Thus they allowed the Holy Spirit in to provide the enlightenment necessary. I agree that this cannot be manufactured & it has to start on your knees....but again this is the work of the Holy Spirit & our society with our moral decay & sin nature will never allow for great spiritual revivals to happen again...sorry to say.
Tom Butler
New Member
I certainly pray that you are wrong. I still believe that the outpouring of the Spirit is a sovereign act, actually an act of mercy by the Lord God.
I continue to believe that the harshest judgment God can bring on anyone is to leave them alone. Lord, please don't leave us alone.
My two-cents worth on "manufactured revival" ....
Real revival cannot be manufactured. I have never preached a "revival meeting" that was any more than a few nights of preaching and some "special" music. The host pastor usually put up a front that he was all pumped up, and the church was ready for revival. I have never figured out what it means to be "ready" for revival. Does it mean to be hungering and longing for a move of God's Spirit? Does it mean that the countdown has started...that at 11 a.m. on Sunday morning the revival takes place?
We often replace the term "revival" with "revival effort." Is that correct? Is genuine revival something we have to exert an effort to achieve?
I have nothing against those men who bear the title "evangelist." Yet, I wonder, if they are evangelists, isn't their calling one of evangelism, not one of calling saints to be revived? In the 15 years I pastored my last church, I never scheduled a "revival meeting." In fact, I told my people that if the church could not be revived under the preaching of its pastor, it could not be revived under the preaching of an evangelist.
We did see times of increased interest, more faithfulness, better attitudes, reconciliations...but I am not sure these times constituted "revival." They were fun and exciting alright, but there was little lasting change. It stumped and saddened me.
I have asked many pastors what is their worst Sunday of the year, in terms of attendance and enthusiasm. The vast majority stated that it was the Sunday following "revival." To me, it proved that the "revival" was just a series of preaching services and accompanying events that physically wore people out. The result was they took off on Sunday to make up for the extra time they spent in church the previous week. So much for "revival."
Obviously, I am not sold on the present day concept of "revival." Yet, I hear it all the time. Churches need a revival. Our national needs a revival. I hear people talk about the great revival that will take place prior to the coming of Jesus. Will that happen? Have I missed that in Scripture? Someone enlighten me.
What about the teaching "if my people will humble themselves and pray"? Will that do the job? Yes, it will. The key is getting to the point of being humble. Can you orchestrate humility? No. Sincere prayer comes from having a humble spirit.
I wish I had all the answers. I don't. I am not sure any of us do. I do know that the God of heaven is able and willing to revive us again....His way.
Real revival cannot be manufactured. I have never preached a "revival meeting" that was any more than a few nights of preaching and some "special" music. The host pastor usually put up a front that he was all pumped up, and the church was ready for revival. I have never figured out what it means to be "ready" for revival. Does it mean to be hungering and longing for a move of God's Spirit? Does it mean that the countdown has started...that at 11 a.m. on Sunday morning the revival takes place?
We often replace the term "revival" with "revival effort." Is that correct? Is genuine revival something we have to exert an effort to achieve?
I have nothing against those men who bear the title "evangelist." Yet, I wonder, if they are evangelists, isn't their calling one of evangelism, not one of calling saints to be revived? In the 15 years I pastored my last church, I never scheduled a "revival meeting." In fact, I told my people that if the church could not be revived under the preaching of its pastor, it could not be revived under the preaching of an evangelist.
We did see times of increased interest, more faithfulness, better attitudes, reconciliations...but I am not sure these times constituted "revival." They were fun and exciting alright, but there was little lasting change. It stumped and saddened me.
I have asked many pastors what is their worst Sunday of the year, in terms of attendance and enthusiasm. The vast majority stated that it was the Sunday following "revival." To me, it proved that the "revival" was just a series of preaching services and accompanying events that physically wore people out. The result was they took off on Sunday to make up for the extra time they spent in church the previous week. So much for "revival."
Obviously, I am not sold on the present day concept of "revival." Yet, I hear it all the time. Churches need a revival. Our national needs a revival. I hear people talk about the great revival that will take place prior to the coming of Jesus. Will that happen? Have I missed that in Scripture? Someone enlighten me.
What about the teaching "if my people will humble themselves and pray"? Will that do the job? Yes, it will. The key is getting to the point of being humble. Can you orchestrate humility? No. Sincere prayer comes from having a humble spirit.
I wish I had all the answers. I don't. I am not sure any of us do. I do know that the God of heaven is able and willing to revive us again....His way.
Tom Butler
New Member
Just curious again. How many of you identify with dh1948's experience?
I don't want to give the impression that the Holy Spirit has never manifested Himself during our revival services, or regular services. He has.
It's uncanny the way it happens. On occasion the pastor will ask if anyone has a testimony. One by one, our people will testify. One will begin weeping as he/she testifies, other tears follow. Someone will begin singing a hymn, we all join in. Someone will head for the front pew, hit his knees and begin to pray. Others join him/her.
The pastor will call everyone to gather at the front (mainly so we can be as close together as possible) and call all of us to prayer. More prayer and praise. And finally, it ends. And by the way, the pastor never gets to preach. There's a remarkable similarity to these occurrences. And it always seems to be an outpouring of the Spirit rather than an "upworking."
There is a spontaneity about them, always unplanned, but times always cherished, and all too rare.
I don't want to give the impression that the Holy Spirit has never manifested Himself during our revival services, or regular services. He has.
It's uncanny the way it happens. On occasion the pastor will ask if anyone has a testimony. One by one, our people will testify. One will begin weeping as he/she testifies, other tears follow. Someone will begin singing a hymn, we all join in. Someone will head for the front pew, hit his knees and begin to pray. Others join him/her.
The pastor will call everyone to gather at the front (mainly so we can be as close together as possible) and call all of us to prayer. More prayer and praise. And finally, it ends. And by the way, the pastor never gets to preach. There's a remarkable similarity to these occurrences. And it always seems to be an outpouring of the Spirit rather than an "upworking."
There is a spontaneity about them, always unplanned, but times always cherished, and all too rare.
Good reading dh1948.
I like you find revival being an effort. In a previous post here I use the word "numbers" for when it is all said and done, we rejoice if we bring in more members, but are disappointed if the numbers are not there.
To me, when a church is looking for revival, it is either not expounding His Word, which to means, it is a Preacher problem. You don't need a revival if the church is Alive In His Word. We rejoice and are happy if our number is 10, or 10,000.
If this is not the case then the church feels they need to get more people into that church to hear the truth, which is no sin. However when they do this they can easily fall into the trap of looking outside of their group, such a nodak's original post points to -- "Got one of those catalogues from a seller of just about all things Christendom this week".
Not referring to any church, organization, or individual, I know some churches (or convince their Members) shell out money on programs, and methods that have no reward except for those selling goods to the good folk that have looked to mighty man to led them to revival. Will we never learn?
My post above may give an indication of my stance. I submit keeping it inhouse, as you point to is a coming together that will hold us together; but for how long? We cannot depend on this method too often. We need the Word of God preached, and explained in detail.
But delving further into His Word I find that reviial can get us into deep trouble, for in revivial involves our Emotions.
Revival is not a one-way street, as we find in Romans 7. Paul continuially warns us of going back to our old ways. We can revive our desire to look to the world to measure our progress according to man.
Tom....I concur with you totally on that & even had fights with a moderator & a know it all pho doctor about that subject....but you must of read Lloyd Jones on this, correct?
Tom Butler
New Member
Actually, I haven't read Dr. Lloyd-Jones on the subject. I've sorta arrived at my view on my own.
Now, I need to add this. Although I do believe the outpouring of the Spirit is a sovereign act, I also believe the HS may burden people for the lost, may convict of sin, may drive Christians to their knees over the need for revival.
Tom Butler
New Member
I understand about the emotions. Sometimes it seems as if our worship leaders have the goal of whipping up our emotions. I've especially seen it in pentecostal and charismatic worship. I was attending a charismatic church service one time. It began with a steady beat of the drums; then the worship leader got up and began clapping his hands to the beat. The congregation followed suit. Then a hot guitar kicked in, and the worship leader began to urge his audience: "Come on, come on, we've got to get in the Spirit!"
Given my traditional Southern Baptist background, I was somewhat disturbed about it.
Yet, I have seen emotion expressed strongly in our own worship services. I have watched as people testified to God's grace, and begin to weep. Other tears followed from the hearers.
I've seen folks moved to say "Amen" to the preached word. Hands raised in adoration. Emotion was not the goal, but was the result of the worship.
We Baptists have been so scared of the abuses and cheap manipulation that we don't want anything to do with emotionalism. But when the Holy Spirit does his work in the congregation, emotion (not emotionalism) can follow.
When true revival breaks out, sin is being confessed, God is saving souls, it's might-nigh impossible to be calm about it.
Cannot disagree when we truly rejoice in our heart, and yes with our tongue. Most of us do rejoice day in, and day out in our hearts even by just reading His Words. But whooping, hollering, jumping, and chanting at almost every meeting? I don't think so, for most of us.Tom Butler;1604742 to ituttutI said: