Are we in the Millennium?

[thomas15]

Sir, I made it clear that I was not simply appealing to the Fathers. I was simply demonstrating that the documented view of Christianity, since before Christ and then up until Rome took over in the 300s, was premillennialism.

rorschach,

Welcome to the land of the perpetual full moon.

 

[Havensdad]

The Fathers held to all kinds of views that you would consider aberrant. Do you want me to give you a list?

You're assuming that a premil view is the only "right" way to read Scripture, yet Scripture is not clear on the matter. Wow!

I cannot understand this view. I am not sure of another doctrine in the scriptures, that is so clearly and plainly spelled out, and excludes all other views. There is a 1000 years. Before the thousand years, believers are raised, en masse, to rule and reign with Christ. This must be physical, because after the 1000 years, unbelievers are raised in the same manner (again, unless you are a universalist). The details can be disputed from scripture (dispy vs. covenant millennialism, for instance), but I simply do not comprehend how anyone can get amillennialism, postmillennialism, etc., from scripture. Its just not there.

 

[thomas15]

Such question requires us to have clearly settled the matter of the millennium, which is only based on Revelation 20.

How much clearer can it get? One thousand years. 1000

Do you need to have Jehovah place an ad in the New York Times? What other number of years is competing for 1000? 2000 years? I show you Scripture stating 1000 years and you reply by telling me that I don't have any Scripture?

If Jehovah didn't want us to know the time of the kingdom why did he give John the figure of 1000 years? Why is it those who simply don't believe that it is 1000 years call those who do take the Word of God seriously misguided? Is it your contention that Rev. Ch 20 un-inspired? Is it less the Word of God than John 3:16? Are there any words in the chapter you don't understand?

When you were a kid, and your daddy told you to be home at 10:00 and he repeated himself 6 times, your telling me that you could walk away with less than a clear understanding of when you were expected home? But it is somehow different when Jehovah tells us that the promised kingdom will last 1000 years.

 

[TCGreek]

Sir, I made it clear that I was not simply appealing to the Fathers. I was simply demonstrating that the documented view of Christianity, since before Christ and then up until Rome took over in the 300s, was premillennialism.

I have also demonstrated that amillennialism is untenable given at least the situation with Ephesus.

These are hardly comprehensive arguments, to be sure, nonetheless you seem to have missed them entirely, or you have chosen to ignore them. At any rate, you have demonstrated that having an engaging conversation with you is not something one should keep on his wish list.

I guess I deserve such for my evasiveness. Let me explain: 1. You have given no Scripture about those before Christ who held to your view of the millennium. 2. Not all of the Fathers held to premillennialism.

 

[TCGreek]

I cannot understand this view. I am not sure of another doctrine in the scriptures, that is so clearly and plainly spelled out, and excludes all other views. There is a 1000 years. Before the thousand years, believers are raised, en masse, to rule and reign with Christ. This must be physical, because after the 1000 years, unbelievers are raised in the same manner (again, unless you are a universalist). The details can be disputed from scripture (dispy vs. covenant millennialism, for instance), but I simply do not comprehend how anyone can get amillennialism, postmillennialism, etc., from scripture. Its just not there.

Yes, a 1000yr reign is clearly taught. But how we interpret it is the crux of the matter. I suggest you read careful Revelation 20 before you make these assertions.

 

[TCGreek]

How much clearer can it get? One thousand years. 1000

Do you need to have Jehovah place an ad in the New York Times? What other number of years is competing for 1000? 2000 years? I show you Scripture stating 1000 years and you reply by telling me that I don't have any Scripture?

If Jehovah didn't want us to know the time of the kingdom why did he give John the figure of 1000 years? Why is it those who simply don't believe that it is 1000 years call those who do take the Word of God seriously misguided? Is it your contention that Rev. Ch 20 un-inspired? Is it less the Word of God than John 3:16? Are there any words in the chapter you don't understand?

When you were a kid, and your daddy told you to be home at 10:00 and he repeated himself 6 times, your telling me that you could walk away with less than a clear understanding of when you were expected home? But it is somehow different when Jehovah tells us that the promised kingdom will last 1000 years.

It's a matter of interpretation.

 

[JesusFan]

But not dispensational post-trib rapture premillenial. The early (post apostolic) church was historical (covenantal) premill...

But other than that, I pretty much agree with you. We are NOT in the Millennium. The scriptures forgo any possibility of that, unless one is a universalist...

What is major difference between pre Mil dispy/Covt for the upcoming events of Second Coming of jesus than?

 

[Amy.G]

It's a matter of interpretation.

How else can it be interpreted? 1000 years means 1000 years.

 

[TCGreek]

How else can it be interpreted? 1000 years means 1000 years.

So too the 7 Spirits of God means the 7 Spirits of God, right?

 

[JesusFan]

How else can it be interpreted? 1000 years means 1000 years.

I am a pre mil pre trib person BUT

Know that Some interprete it as being symbolic of a long period of time, no definite number of years!

They see us as living in Millinium right now, past 2000 yrs, as they see jesus as ruling from/in heaven all that time!

 

[Palatka51]

Do you believe we are currently in the Millennium? Provide scriptural support?

Uh, no. I just had to pull over for a funeral procession yesterday. No one dies during the 1000 year reign.

 

[Tom Butler]

Given the shape our country and our world are in, I'd say we're definitely not in the Millenium. More like the Tribulation. Except the dispys don't think we're supposed to be here for that. And so far the Anti-Christ has yet to appear.

Oh, wait......

 

[webdog]

There will be peace during the first 3 years of the great tribulation, so we are not in it...the middle east grows more volatile by the day.

I also believe there will be death during the MK.

 

[JesusFan]

Given the shape our country and our world are in, I'd say we're definitely not in the Millenium. More like the Tribulation. Except the dispys don't think we're supposed to be here for that. And so far the Anti-Christ has yet to appear.

Oh, wait......

My pastor IS a dispy who holds that we WILL go through ALL of the Tribulation though...

Go figure!

 

[thomas15]

So too the 7 Spirits of God means the 7 Spirits of God, right?

I take it you want to argue for 8 or 9 possibly more?

Sir, by taking the allegorical position you imagine your opinions as fact which of course is your right to do. However you fail to comprehend that your opinion is no more valid than else's and even less valid when the Scriptures taken literally make actual sense over an arbitrary allegorical meaning.

Given that Robert L. Thomas spends a minimum of 4 pages discussing from various different angles the 7 spirits, it is unclear to me what you expect to gain by bring up this verse in this particular discussion which is clearly not intended to become an academic exercise. Do you somehow think that if there is some disagreement involving numbers in one verse 18 chapters away from the seat of the discussion then your opinionated interpretation is somehow deemed correct?

But none of this really addresses the main issue here and that is some people on this thread actually think that we are in the millennium right now, that the assembly of the elect in Christ is the promised kingdom of the new covenant and Christ is ruling with an iron scepter, justice is quickly served on the wicked, that satan is chained in the pit and unable to deceive the nations and so forth and that none of the judgements leading up to the second coming have been recorded in history.

In the beginning chapters of Genesis we learn of sin spoiling the garden. At the end of Revelation the garden is restored. It is restored for 1000 years, not 999 or 1001. Why you would even hesitate to think the promised kingdom is anything other than 1000 years is hard to understand.

 

[Allan]

So too the 7 Spirits of God means the 7 Spirits of God, right?

TC.. the interpretation is key.. you can not make allegorical what is not written in allegorical language. The passage of the 1000 years is so specific in how it is written you can not take it any other way if you keep with proper hermeneutics.

There is no wording of 'like' or 'as' in reference to this thousand years in Revelation.. there is allusions to imagery here either.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Where in the above should we note allegory.. the devil? Bound? Pit? nations?
And if none of them.. why think the thousand years are allegorical?

Or the rest?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Now you are a student of the word and pretty darn good one at that :thumbs:, so you know as well as I do that any time scripture repeats a word 2 or 3 times we are to take note that God is trying to tell us something important regarding that issue... He is trying to get something across.. and here we have God saying the same thing 6 different times in 6 consecutive verses. I think God is trying to get across a particular point regarding this aspect.

 

[Tom Butler]

My pastor IS a dispy who holds that we WILL go through ALL of the Tribulation though...

Go figure!

Never heard of that before. How does he explain that inconsistency?

 

[TCGreek]

I take it you want to argue for 8 or 9 possibly more?

Sir, by taking the allegorical position you imagine your opinions as fact which of course is your right to do. However you fail to comprehend that your opinion is no more valid than else's and even less valid when the Scriptures taken literally make actual sense over an arbitrary allegorical meaning.

Given that Robert L. Thomas spends a minimum of 4 pages discussing from various different angles the 7 spirits, it is unclear to me what you expect to gain by bring up this verse in this particular discussion which is clearly not intended to become an academic exercise. Do you somehow think that if there is some disagreement involving numbers in one verse 18 chapters away from the seat of the discussion then your opinionated interpretation is somehow deemed correct?

But none of this really addresses the main issue here and that is some people on this thread actually think that we are in the millennium right now, that the assembly of the elect in Christ is the promised kingdom of the new covenant and Christ is ruling with an iron scepter, justice is quickly served on the wicked, that satan is chained in the pit and unable to deceive the nations and so forth and that none of the judgements leading up to the second coming have been recorded in history.

In the beginning chapters of Genesis we learn of sin spoiling the garden. At the end of Revelation the garden is restored. It is restored for 1000 years, not 999 or 1001. Why you would even hesitate to think the promised kingdom is anything other than 1000 years is hard to understand.

The promised kingdom is not even mentioned in Revelation 20.

I alluded to numbers because numbers should not be taken lightly in a book of this nature/genre.

 

[TCGreek]

TC.. the interpretation is key.. you can not make allegorical what is not written in allegorical language. The passage of the 1000 years is so specific in how it is written you can not take it any other way if you keep with proper hermeneutics.

There is no wording of 'like' or 'as' in reference to this thousand years in Revelation.. there is allusions to imagery here either.

Where in the above should we note allegory.. the devil? Bound? Pit? nations?
And if none of them.. why think the thousand years are allegorical?

Or the rest?

Now you are a student of the word and pretty darn good one at that :thumbs:, so you know as well as I do that any time scripture repeats a word 2 or 3 times we are to take note that God is trying to tell us something important regarding that issue... He is trying to get something across.. and here we have God saying the same thing 6 different times in 6 consecutive verses. I think God is trying to get across a particular point regarding this aspect.

Yes, but so too we read of the seven spirits of God without the use of "like" or "as."

Yes, 1000 years is specific - a number. But there's nothing within these verses that prevent one from interpreting it non-literally. Nothing.

 

[rorschach]

Yes, but so too we read of the seven spirits of God without the use of "like" or "as."

Yes, 1000 years is specific - a number. But there's nothing within these verses that prevent one from interpreting it non-literally. Nothing.

The arguments on this particular matter seem to be rather naive.

There needs to be some honesty regarding the number 1000, and anyone spending time in Scripture will see that numbers (as well as many other things) can be very figurative. Scripture does not play semantic games, so arguments such as "It doesn't use the word 'like' or 'as'" don't work as rules for interpretation. Scripture simply (and demonstrably) does not play by those rules.

So rather than going back-and-forth in such a useless fashion, I would like to see people demonstrate that the 1000 years is literal...or figurative.

I personally am not convinced that the 1000 years is literal, just like I am not convinced that the 144,000 is an exact, literal number, and just like I am not convinced that "all" of Israel will be saved (only a significant portion of it).

tl;dr: I cannot find a way to fit amillennialism into Scripture, but I have found no reason to either insist or deny that the kingdom will last for a literal 1000 years.