Are we in the Millennium?

[Allan]

Yes, but so too we read of the seven spirits of God without the use of "like" or "as."

Agreed But the context sets up the passage to be read in a non-literal way. There were not only 7 churches in Asia but many more.. thus the passage stating to the 7 churches refers to the church as whole, yet using 7 specific ones for speaking to and with all. This was typical noting the number 7 has significance and also speaks to completion or the whole and thus we see the same with the reference to the Seven Spirits before the throne. We see the desired imagery here is as well when it speaks of God the Father, but interestingly enough is not mentioned specifically but alluded to by the phase "Who was, and Is, and Is to Come.." So the context sets up the passage in such a way so we can know 'this' portion is to be understood through imagery.

Yes, 1000 years is specific - a number. But there's nothing within these verses that prevent one from interpreting it non-literally. Nothing.

The problem here, is that unlike the passage regarding the seven Spirits.. the context here is not set up for imagery but is described as a matter fact. The number is specific, the term years is not allusionary nor is it referenced as such in the 6 different times, in 6 verses it is used. The language bears out the fact it is meant as a specific 'linear' time and is repeated in this fashion to prove the point. Don't take my word for it.. look at the passage.
1. Satan will be bound a 1000 years;
2. Satan shall not deceive the nations again till one thousand years be completed;
3. Christ will reign for one thousand years (this is while Satan is bound to no longer deceive the nations);
4. The rest dead will not live till the one thousand years are finished (fulfillment of Christ reign)
5. The first resurrection will reign with Christ for one thousand years
6. When the one thousand years are expired, Satan will be loosed (for one last gathering)

Thus we have when it will begin, what WILL happen during it, and what will happen at it's end. What is most significant is the linear process of time described with an exact beginning, end.. and specific time of duration while never using or alluding to imagery language through out it.

The language is undeniable in that the time referenced here is linear and definite. So undeniable that the church held it for nearly 400 years, till it was changed around 450'ish a.d., and brought back into dominance after the reformation.

 

[thomas15]

The promised kingdom is not even mentioned in Revelation 20.

I alluded to numbers because numbers should not be taken lightly in a book of this nature/genre.

So you solve your perceived dilemma by making 1000 mean something/anything other than 1000? Pure genius.

 

[Havensdad]

Yes, a 1000yr reign is clearly taught. But how we interpret it is the crux of the matter. I suggest you read careful Revelation 20 before you make these assertions.

I have. VERY much. The dead in Christ are brought back to life before the thousand years begin. The thousand years has thus not begun yet.

 

[TCGreek]

Agreed But the context sets up the passage to be read in a non-literal way. There were not only 7 churches in Asia but many more.. thus the passage stating to the 7 churches refers to the church as whole, yet using 7 specific ones for speaking to and with all. This was typical noting the number 7 has significance and also speaks to completion or the whole and thus we see the same with the reference to the Seven Spirits before the throne. We see the desired imagery here is as well when it speaks of God the Father, but interestingly enough is not mentioned specifically but alluded to by the phase "Who was, and Is, and Is to Come.." So the context sets up the passage in such a way so we can know 'this' portion is to be understood through imagery.


The problem here, is that unlike the passage regarding the seven Spirits.. the context here is not set up for imagery but is described as a matter fact. The number is specific, the term years is not allusionary nor is it referenced as such in the 6 different times, in 6 verses it is used. The language bears out the fact it is meant as a specific 'linear' time and is repeated in this fashion to prove the point. Don't take my word for it.. look at the passage.
1. Satan will be bound a 1000 years;
2. Satan shall not deceive the nations again till one thousand years be completed;
3. Christ will reign for one thousand years (this is while Satan is bound to no longer deceive the nations);
4. The rest dead will not live till the one thousand years are finished (fulfillment of Christ reign)
5. The first resurrection will reign with Christ for one thousand years
6. When the one thousand years are expired, Satan will be loosed (for one last gathering)

Thus we have when it will begin, what WILL happen during it, and what will happen at it's end. What is most significant is the linear process of time described with an exact beginning, end.. and specific time of duration while never using or alluding to imagery language through out it.

The language is undeniable in that the time referenced here is linear and definite. So undeniable that the church held it for nearly 400 years, till it was changed around 450'ish a.d., and brought back into dominance after the reformation.

Allan, fair enough. As interpret the matter 1000yrs is just another way of referring to a period of time. It was originally meant to be of comfort to the original readers who were going through severe persecutions. On this matter, I can say no more.

 

[TCGreek]

So you solve your perceived dilemma by making 1000 mean something/anything other than 1000? Pure genius.

A simple period of time.

 

[TCGreek]

I have. VERY much. The dead in Christ are brought back to life before the thousand years begin. The thousand years has thus not begun yet.

According to Rev 20:4-6 a specific people for a specific time, which I contend have already occurred.

 

[webdog]

Allan, fair enough. As interpret the matter 1000yrs is just another way of referring to a period of time. It was originally meant to be of comfort to the original readers who were going through severe persecutions. On this matter, I can say no more.

How would have that particular number been of more comfort?

 

[TCGreek]

How would have that particular number been of more comfort?

WD, I take the recapitulation view to Revelation. Those who are addressed in 20:4-6 are offered comfort through this promise of 1000yr reign with Christ.

 

[thomas15]

A simple period of time.

This mindset is one of, but not the only reason why I contend that the church (however you want to define the church, makes no difference), is in serious trouble.

 

[TCGreek]

This mindset is one of, but not the only reason why I contend that the church (however you want to define the church, makes no difference), is in serious trouble.

Do yourself a favor and get to know the great theologians and pastors of the church who didn't hold to your view.

I'm so encouraged that you're not the final arbiter in these matters.

 

[Havensdad]

According to Rev 20:4-6 a specific people for a specific time, which I contend have already occurred.

AHH! So we are going to have to experience the "second death"?

 

[thomas15]

Do yourself a favor and get to know the great theologians and pastors of the church who didn't hold to your view.

I'm confused, is the Bible your final authority or the WCF, the reformers/theologians and their writings? I think I asked you that question before and your answer was ( no response ).

I'm so encouraged that you're not the final arbiter in these matters.

We finally agree on something.

 

[TCGreek]

AHH! So we are going to have to experience the "second death"?

A specific group is being addressed.

 

[JesusFan]

A specific group is being addressed.

indeed, that being ALL of those whose names were NOT found in the Lambs Book of Life!

 

[Havensdad]

A specific group is being addressed.

The group is "the rest" as in, all of the ones that weren't in the first group...

 

[Martin Marprelate]

How else can it be interpreted? 1000 years means 1000 years.

Psalm 50:10. 'For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.' I'm sure there are more than 1,000 hills in the world. Do the cattle on those not belong to God?

Deut 7:9. '....The faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy to a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments.' If there should be a 1,001st generation, would God's covenant and love run out?

2Peter 3:8. '.....That with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day.' Are we to take this completely literally, or does God not live in a boundless present and all things, past present and future are constantly before His eyes?

It is my belief that '1,000' in these three examples means 'all that there are, and that the 1,000 years of Rev 20 means all the time that there is between Our Lord's Ascension and His return.

Steve

 

[thomas15]

....It is my belief that '1,000' in these three examples means 'all that there are, and that the 1,000 years of Rev 20 means all the time that there is between Our Lord's Ascension and His return.

Steve

Ok, Steve,

So when did this unknowable amount of time in Rev 20 begin, Biblically speaking? If it started at Acts ch 2, then why did John say it was a thing to come?

 

[TCGreek]

The group is "the rest" as in, all of the ones that weren't in the first group...

The "rest of the death" are clearly those for whom the promise of the 1000yr reign is not applicable.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Ok, Steve,

So when did this unknowable amount of time in Rev 20 begin, Biblically speaking? If it started at Acts ch 2, then why did John say it was a thing to come?

Well, I guess the vast amount of it was still to come. There is such a thing as Prophetic Foreshortening. See if you can fit these three Bible verses together.
John 5:24-5. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My voice and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God ; and those who hear will live.'

Eph 2:6. '.....And raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.'

Rev 20:4. 'And I saw the souls of those......who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.'

I try not to be too dogmatic about the end-times. So long as folk believe in the physical return of Christ at the end of time, that is fine by me. God isn't going to consult me or you about how He organizes the end of the world, so |'m just going to wait and see what He does. I do have my views, however, which I cautiously offer for your consideration.

The book that helped me enormously on the end-times question is More than Conquerors by Wiliam Hendricksen. I strongly urge anyone who is interested in eschatology to read it.

Steve