Are we to ask for forgivness for sins?

[Eliyahu]

Thanks for your responses.
1. Asking the forgiveness, yes it is related to the time too, maybe just once when we are born again.
But the main nature is the relation with Cross. Without Cross we can never think about the forgiveness. So, the main issue is whether we can ASK God to forgive our sins without believing the fact of Cross or we can still ASK God to forgive even though we know God forgave us already!

2. This is not the pre-requisite for the Salvation. Even the true believers may make the mistakes and make some contradiction in their statements. However, if Catholic Mass or any church repeatedly ASK for the forgiveness without saying that ALL the sins were forgiven ONCE FOR ALL at the Cross and thereby nobody believes that Jesus finished His work at the Cross, there can hardly be the true believers in such church.
Forgiveness must be linked with Cross which was already completed.

3. If anyone disbelieves the redemption of sins, their sins are the ones of Disbelief or Unbelief.
Their sins remain unforgiven because they didn't believe, not because they did bad things and committed the sins. Their sins remain unforgiven because they never repented and confessed the sins. If they confessed the sins, they would have received the forgiveness which was done already at the Cross, not the new one!
If anyone doesn't believe the redemption by Cross, they are refusing the grant of such Remission.
Stalin's sins were forgiven, but I believe he never believed it. Therefore his sins remain.

 

[Eliyahu]

So far I have heard nobody testifying his or her own salvation.
Even at the time of our salvation, we ask God to forgive, but realize that God has forgiven at the Cross, 2000 years ago, not the new forgiveness.

 

[Eliyahu]

I would not object to any prayer that God may allow me to believe, re-experience, and realize the forgiveness of sins which was done already at the Cross, which I used to do often.In that case I confess to God, I believe even this sin was forgiven at the Cross, and I thank God for that.
The Problem is that people pursue the forgiveness without believing the forgiveness done already at the Cross.

 

[gekko]

eliyahu said "The Problem is that people pursue the forgiveness without believing the forgiveness done already at the Cross."

so are you saying we dont have to ask forgiveness?

yes. lets become christians and not repent. what? come again?

asking forgiveness is repenting... no?

 

[gekko]

in a way...

maybe im not completely correct on that point...

 

[Eliyahu]

I doubt you read my post. Did I not mention the difference between Confess and Ask? Does God owe you anything ?
Asking forgiveness without believing God's forgiveness is somewhat Insisting on one's own way.

Do you believe that All the sins were forgiven ONCE For ALL at the Cross?

Where did I say that we should not repent?

So far nobody has brought the Answer from God yet!

 

[Eliyahu]

Difference between Confessing Sins and Asking God to Forgive:

Confessing:
In both cases the Confession of sins take place;
1) While we still believe and thank God that God has forgiven all our sins because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ who shed the blood and died for our sins ONCE FOR ALL.
2) While we do not know or believe that God has forgiven all our sins already at the Cross, and want God to forgive them.

Confession leaves the absolute Sovereignty to God about the forgiveness and means Obedience, as it comes from the True Repentance.

Asking God to forgive:

1) It is confessing some sins were not forgiven by God yet and therefore someone wants God to forgive, which means that "someone" doesn't believe all the sins were forgiven at the Cross.

2) If anyone firmly and strongly believe that ALL the Sins were forgiven at the Cross Once for All by the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, then she or he would find "ASKING God to forgive" contradicts what Jesus has done already and the person's belief is betrayed by such demand to God.

3) Asking God to do some action means that the person believes that God has not done what He has to do. In this case, it means the very serious work- Redemption- was not done yet, they believe, which is terrible rebellion against God.

Asking God to forgive may start from a swallow repentance but eventually insisting on the person's own righteousness without knowing the truth.

The distinction between Confession of sins and Asking the forgiveness must be clarified.

 

[xdisciplex]

But you could also see it this way that Jesus paid for all sins but that we still have to ask for forgiveness to get the forgiveness.

 

[KellyWhite]

If, as a Baptist, you are Saved, why must you ask for forgiveness of sin?

Theoretically, you won't sin because you have been saved. Jesus Christ died for you sins.

To ask God for forgiveness of sins sounds Catholic, to me.

 

[Eliyahu]

All the time, that's why I asked the people who claim that we have to ask God to forgive our sins, what was the Answer from God when they asked God to forgive the sins? Then nobody brought the answer so far!
They never prayed God to forgive their sins until they received the Answer from Him.

It is very much hypocritical way.

When we Confess our sins, we must pray and confess them, until we confirm the final answer again, which is possible only after one completely repent.

The Answer for our confession of sins is to re-discovery of the meaning of the Cross. There we find our newly discovered sins were already forgiven there at the Cross as well. We repeat this nprocess again and again by repentance and confession, then we would not try to commit the sins any more.

This is quite difficult to understand unless someone is truly born-again.

 

[Eliyahu]

In Toronto, I watch TV and around 11:30 am every morning TV shows the Catholic Mass. But the priests ask God to forgive the sins of the people, which looks like very much humble and honest to God, but they never mention that such sins were already forgiven at the Cross because of the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ.
Thereafter, the priests behave like that sins were forgiven in a certain way which is not mentioned at all. Then thank God with cookies lifted on high. Also, they show the wine, and after they pray, they behave like that the wine became the Blood because of their prayer.

In the whole process, they never mention that all the sins they mentioned were already forgiven at the Cross Once for All.

Next week they repeat the same process and the prayer of the previous week is not mentioned as having been answered already at the Cross.
They don't mention about the Cross, because if they mention about it,they don't have to ask God to forgive the sins, from next week.
They never bring the Good News Gospel to the people. But they just repeat ASKING God to forgive their sins, which is also found in the pagan religion, in Confucianism, Buddhism, Shamanism, they repent quite a lot about that they didn't repsect their parents etc. Then they ask their god, but never bring the answer from their god that such sins were forgiven. Because they don't have CROSS. No god died for the people, for the sins.


ONLY JESUS CHRIST died for us, and there is no way other than Jesus Christ. (Acts 4:12)

 

[xdisciplex]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:


This is quite difficult to understand unless someone is truly born-again.

Are you saying we're not born again just because we don't know what you mean? I don't even know which answer you mean maybe you experience this but you cannot make a general rule out of this.

 

[xdisciplex]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:


Asking God to forgive:

1) It is confessing some sins were not forgiven by God yet and therefore someone wants God to forgive, which means that "someone" doesn't believe all the sins were forgiven at the Cross.

2) If anyone firmly and strongly believe that ALL the Sins were forgiven at the Cross Once for All by the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, then she or he would find "ASKING God to forgive" contradicts what Jesus has done already and the person's belief is betrayed by such demand to God.

Where does the bible say that all sins are already forgiven?
You could also see it this way, that the cross is the legal basis for God to forgive all sins but that getting this forgiveness depends on asking to be forgiven.


I also have another question for you.
Does God have to forgive everything since Jesus already paid for everything? Or can God not still hold the forgiveness back? What happens if a christian willingly sins and keeps on sinning? Can God not say that he'll not forgive these sins?
According to what you say it sounds like if you've once accepted Jesus you can live like hell and still be saved because God is forced to forgive us.

[ May 19, 2006, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: xdisciplex ]

 

[xdisciplex]

And also look at this, this sounds like there are certain requirements to be forgiven.

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by xdisciplex:
Where does the bible say that all sins are already forgiven?
You could also see it this way, that the cross is the legal basis for God to forgive all sins but that getting this forgiveness depends on asking to be forgiven.


I also have another question for you.
Does God have to forgive everything since Jesus already paid for everything? Or can God not still hold the forgiveness back? What happens if a christian willingly sins and keeps on sinning? Can God not say that he'll not forgive these sins?
According to what you say it sounds like if you've once accepted Jesus you can live like hell and still be saved because God is forced to forgive us.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

A person who is born again is born into God's family. At that time God forgives his sins. A child may sin against his father. His father will discipline his child for the wrong that he has done, but will he still be his child. Of course he will. I will not disown my children just because they do something I don't like, or because they disobey me outrightly.
The same is true with God. Once you become part of His family he will not disown you. You are now part of his family, his child, his heir, and a joint heir with Christ. Man may write a child out of his will. God will not write you out of His will. You are not only an heir of God but a joint-heir with Christ. God is immutable, unchangeable and does not lie.

Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

When the disciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, Jesus told them to pray in this fasion...

One of the verses in this prayer says,'And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.'

Yes, we are to ask for forgiveness.

 

[Claudia_T]

well if you use that Lord's Prayer like that then you would also have to accept the second part of it that says "AS WE forgive our debtors"

In other words, God isnt going to forgive us if we dont forgive others.... meaning that even though we are under grace we still have to act like decent human beings and be willing to forgive others.


Like the story of the man who owed a huge debt and he was thrown in prison but the King forgave him and let him out of prison... Then the man went out and tried to strangle someone who owed HIM a debt... so what did the King do? He turned around and he threw him back into prison!

showing that even though we are under grace, we are expected to have a change of scenery in how we act.

Matthew 5:7

Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
When the disciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, Jesus told them to pray in this fasion...

One of the verses in this prayer says,'And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.'

Yes, we are to ask for forgiveness.

Let's make sure we're on the same page.
"The Lord's Prayer" was given as a model prayer for the disciples. It was never meant for unbelievers. The forgiveness spoken of there has nothing to do with salvation. This is a prayer (more specifically a pattern for prayer) for believers only.

Praying for fogiveness in the light of salvation is an entirely different subject. I believe these two are being mixed together here. God forgives ALL our sins at the point of salvation. When I was saved He put all of my sins: past, present and future under the blood. There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
I am covered by the blood of Christ.
But I still sin. And this is not an excuse to sin. My sin breaks my fellowship with God. Every day I must confess my sin to God in order to find forgiveness and restore my fellowship with God. But this has nothing to do with my salvation. Salvation is a free gift from God. It is not earned. It is given. It is by grace through faith.
DHK

 

[xdisciplex]

@ DHK

Do you believe in OSAS? Because if you cannot get lost once you're in God's family then what sense do all the analogies make?

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

This sounds like you can fall off and get lost.

 

[Claudia_T]

you can