Are You a Calvinist or a Non-Cal?

[Iconoclast]

Either God caused man to become depraved or He allowed it. Yes? No?

Yes....it has happened , so it was ordained to come to pass....and yet...it happens in time.....it was not like God sent angels and forced Adam to take and eat the fruit....

From our point of view...when we offer the blood of the cross to sinners,and urge them to believe.....they are fully responsible to...

What God has planned or ordained is His buisness. Our buisness is to obey and seek to win souls , by being faithful to the revealed truth as God does not tell us which persons are His by the decree...look here in Acts 18;

9Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: 10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

God tells Him... to not hold back or fear...but to speak....God says I have much people in this city

God does not say...All people might believe...he says I have many in this city. much people...he does not identify them by name, or description...so the gospel is preached ....in real time.... real people listen ...some receive and welcome the word of truth...some do not welcome it.
We believe God makes the difference in those who do repent and believe,and exercise saving faith......all who hear the words do not believe.
None would believe, ....But God who is rich in Mercy.....enables many....
he does not have to enable anyone...but he has mercy on whom he will have mercy.....

No one stops the others from believing...but their sin depraved minds ,twist and distort the word preached, they oppose themselves and blaspheme...be cause sin has made them criminally insane spiritually...like the demoniac, they are bound by sin and satan, and cannot receive the things of the spirit of God.:thumbsup:

It happens IN REAL TIME as far as we are concerned...we should not shrink back from presenting truth as the Spirit works in and through us as the means God uses to save His people...

 

[InTheLight]

Yes....it has happened , so it was ordained to come to pass....and yet...it happens in time.....it was not like God sent angels and forced Adam to take and eat the fruit....

Of course God didn't force Adam to eat the fruit. BUT, (if you believe in total depravity) God must have caused Adam and all subsequent humans to be depraved. However, the scriptures only say that if he were to eat the fruit that he "would surely die."

Total depravity was given to humans from God. Ergo, men don't seek God because God made them that way.

 

[Amy.G]

Total depravity was given to humans from God. Ergo, men don't seek God because God made them that way.

Huh?

We inherited our depravity from Adam.

 

[InTheLight]

Huh?

We inherited our depravity from Adam.

Where did Adam get it? If one holds to depravity, and if one holds to God being sovereign and in control of everything, the inescapable conclusion is that God made us (as a consequence of the Fall) to be depraved.

 

[Winman]

Where did Adam get it? If one holds to depravity, and if one holds to God being sovereign and in control of everything, the inescapable conclusion is that God made us (as a consequence of the Fall) to be depraved.

Yes, one of Calvinism's favorite verses to prove man is enslaved by a sin nature is Jeremiah 13:23.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

I guess it never occurs to Calvinists that God gave the Ethiopians their dark skin and the leopard his spots.

 

[Skandelon]

Yes, one of Calvinism's favorite verses to prove man is enslaved by a sin nature is Jeremiah 13:23.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

I guess it never occurs to Calvinists that God gave the Ethiopians their dark skin and the leopard his spots.

:applause:

 

[Iconoclast]

Of course God didn't force Adam to eat the fruit. BUT, (if you believe in total depravity) God must have caused Adam and all subsequent humans to be depraved. However, the scriptures only say that if he were to eat the fruit that he "would surely die."

Total depravity was given to humans from God. Ergo, men don't seek God because God made them that way.

No...I will not blame God for mans sin and rebellion. man has gotten what he deserved...it is only mercy thatany of us get saved. You should be careful when you think on these things ITL......:godisgood: not evil not to be blamed.
God always does what is right. You make it sound as if you feel God has done something wrong.

Total depravity addresses the fact that every part of man has been effected by the fall.....his heart, mind, emotions, will, all twisted by sin.....It comes from Adam,not from God...that is why jesus had to be conceived by the Spirit to be sinless.

 

[Iconoclast]

Huh?

We inherited our depravity from Adam.

yes we did...exactly...:thumbs: to error here is to go off theologically.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, one of Calvinism's favorite verses to prove man is enslaved by a sin nature is Jeremiah 13:23.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

I guess it never occurs to Calvinists that God gave the Ethiopians their dark skin and the leopard his spots.

Winman,

can you ever get a verse correct?? The verse is not talking about who gave the skin , or the leopard it's spots...it is asking can anyone change their skin,or remove the spots.....dead sinners cannot change..it is a supernatural change in believers wrought by God...not the sinner.....no wonder you and others keep trying to blame God!
The constant implication from you guys is that we need to blame God....this goes beyond debate or discussion...I think you need to repent of these foul thoughts;

 

[Skandelon]

Winman,

can you ever get a verse correct?? The verse is not talking about who gave the skin , or the leopard it's spots...it is asking can anyone change their skin,or remove the spots.....dead sinners cannot change..it is a supernatural change in believers wrought by God...not the sinner.....no wonder you and others keep trying to blame God!

You are not understanding correctly.

We are ourselves aren't blaming God for their 'skin' (representing their nature) for we believe their nature is "FREE." (contra-causally free that is). We are blaming YOUR VIEW OF GOD for the nature, because IN YOUR VIEW man does what he does according to the nature he was given and cannot do otherwise.

The constant implication from you guys is that we need to blame God....this goes beyond debate or discussion...I think you need to repent of these foul thoughts;

Who, if not God, decided that all mankind would be punished for the sin of Adam by being born with a totally depraved nature? Who if not God, put their skin on them from birth?

 

[Winman]

You are not understanding correctly.

We are ourselves aren't blaming God for their 'skin' (representing their nature) for we believe their nature is "FREE." (contra-causally free that is). We are blaming YOUR VIEW OF GOD for the nature, because IN YOUR VIEW man does what he does according to the nature he was given and cannot do otherwise.

He understands Skan.

Who, if not God, decided that all mankind would be punished for the sin of Adam by being born with a totally depraved nature? Who if not God, put their skin on them from birth?

He understands this too Skan. He knows exactly what I was saying. And he understands exactly what you are saying too.

 

[Skandelon]

Does he? Because if indeed he does understand this then wouldn't it make much more since for him to say something like:

"Our view doesn't really blame God for man's fallen nature because that is the one thing God just isn't sovereign over. That result from the fall was just an accident. God had nothing to do with it."

 

[Winman]

Does he? Because if indeed he does understand this then wouldn't it make much more since for him to say something like:

"Our view doesn't really blame God for man's fallen nature because that is the one thing God just isn't sovereign over. That result from the fall was just an accident. God had nothing to do with it."

All of their views are contradictions. They are ACCUSTOMED to accepting contradictions. He knows it is a contradiction, but accepts it anyway.

 

[Winman]

A good analogy is a robot. Originally Adam was like a robot wired to make actual choices between good and evil. Because Adam sinned, as punishment God rewired and hardwired Adam so that he could only choose evil, and all of Adam's descendants would also be hardwired to always choose evil.

He knows that God is the one who hardwired men to always choose sin, but he will immediately contradict himself and say God was not the cause.

This is what they do. And you aren't going to change their view.

 

[Skandelon]

All of their views are contradictions. They are ACCUSTOMED to accepting contradictions. He knows it is a contradiction, but accepts it anyway.

So, it is your contention that Calvinists affirm God is just as sovereignly in control over the development of a man's new nature as He is the original fallen nature?

That would only be a contradiction if a Calvinist denied God's sovereign control over one or the other...oh, yeah, that is what they are doing....i.e. "why do you insist on blaming God?"

 

[Skandelon]

A good analogy is a robot. Originally Adam was like a robot wired to make actual choices between good and evil. Because Adam sinned, as punishment God rewired and hardwired Adam so that he could only choose evil, and all of Adam's descendants would also be hardwired to always choose evil.

He knows that God is the one who hardwired men to always choose sin, but he will immediately contradict himself and say God was not the cause.

Maybe this is the one thing God is not sovereignly in control of in their system? Maybe he closed his eyes for just that moment when men sinned and 'mother nature' accidentally 'reprogrammed' man's nature and God had nothing to do with it???

No, you are right. This is one of the many achilles heels of Calvinism. On the one hand, they want to claim full sovereign control by God over all things, but can't seem to admit the result of the Fall is equally under his control. They say God fully controls the new nature of man by which he accepts scripture's appeal to be reconciled, but somehow this same Sovereign God isn't in control over the nature by which mankind rejects that same appeal. A confounded worldview.

 

[InTheLight]

Maybe this is the one thing God is not sovereignly in control of in their system? Maybe he closed his eyes for just that moment when men sinned and 'mother nature' accidentally 'reprogrammed' man's nature and God had nothing to do with it???

No, you are right. This is one of the many achilles heels of Calvinism. On the one hand, they want to claim full sovereign control by God over all things, but can't seem to admit the result of the Fall is equally under his control.

Yep. Calvinists really can't explain the origin of sin.

 

[Iconoclast]

You are not understanding correctly.

We are ourselves aren't blaming God for their 'skin' (representing their nature) for we believe their nature is "FREE." (contra-causally free that is). We are blaming YOUR VIEW OF GOD for the nature, because IN YOUR VIEW man does what he does according to the nature he was given and cannot do otherwise.



Who, if not God, decided that all mankind would be punished for the sin of Adam by being born with a totally depraved nature? Who if not God, put their skin on them from birth?

I understand what you think you are trying to do. Nevertheless....you do not understand is that you are blaming God...bottom line. It is not a cal's view of God you are speaking of but God himself,
we inherit our sin nature from Adam..... You have been answered,but when you turn from the answer...you have only shared ignorance...like the last several posts in here. When you want to consider the answers ,get back to us

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Touché My Friend Icono!:laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

I understand what you think you are trying to do. Nevertheless....you do not understand is that you are blaming God...bottom line.

If you assume your view of God is accurate (question begging) then yes, you are correct, we'd be blaming God for being in sovereign control over our natures being totally depraved from birth. Now, why do you deny that? Don't you all believe He is sovereign over all things?

It is not a cal's view of God you are speaking of

Ok, then tell us what the Calvinistic view is then. Who, if not God, decided that all men would have a totally depraved nature from birth due to the Fall? Just answer the question and then we will know your view.