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Are You A Calvinist?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Major B, Jun 29, 2003.

?

Are you saved?

  1. Yes

    45 vote(s)
    97.8%

  2. Maybe

    1 vote(s)
    2.2%

  3. I hope so

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  4. You can't know until the judgment

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Top Posters
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  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    After reading the responses to a so-so poll (I make a lot of polls and it is HARD to get a really good and accurate one, trust me) I remember why I don't frequent this forum.

    I am 100% reformed in theology and saddened by those to whom the light of the glorious truth about the Gospel has not dawned. It was not some decision or belief system I came to slowly; God opened my eyes to see His sovereign grace.

    Coming from a strange mixture of Judaism and Catholicism, GOD regenerating me and giving me both repentance toward sin and faith toward God was AMAZING. It HAD to be all of God.

    And anything else belittles God and deifies man.

    And now I take leave of this forum and head back to the ones over which I have responsibility and are productive - with never an argument.

    Like the Bible Version/Translation Forum. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
    #21 Dr. Bob, Jul 5, 2003
  2. Chrift

    Chrift New Member

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    I passed the Calvanist test, but I don't believe in double predestination and my tulip has only 2 pedals.
    (T. U. _._._.).
     
    #22 Chrift, Jul 5, 2003
  3. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    It is really difficult to take a poll when the person who makes the poll is clueless about how one is saved.
     
    #23 Eladar, Jul 5, 2003
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    It is apparent that the person who does not know what Calvinism really is is unfortunately the person who wrote the longest post here. I didn't even read the whole thing (it was way too long for this format) and I can point out dozens of errors and misunderstandings. Hopefully this is from a book that is not published.
     
    #24 Pastor Larry, Jul 5, 2003
  5. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Pastor Larry, those long posts just allow some to dig a deeper hole into which to bury themselves.

    As soon as someone mentions double-predestination in the same breath as Calvinism, I know they don't understand Calvinism to begin with.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
    #25 Jim1999, Jul 5, 2003
  6. Chrift

    Chrift New Member

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    Can someone answer the Calvanist's answer to the question "why are some not saved"?

    My understanding is that Calvan taught double predestination...

    "God’s eternal decree, by which He determined with Him what He willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others. Therefore, as any man has been created to one or the other of these ends, we speak of him as predestined to life or to death." (Institutes of the Christian Religion III, xxi , 5)

    Thanks in advance.

    God Bless.
     
    #26 Chrift, Jul 5, 2003
  7. Chrift

    Chrift New Member

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    sorry double post
     
    #27 Chrift, Jul 5, 2003
  8. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Only if one is a rationalist.
     
    #28 Baptist Believer, Jul 5, 2003
  9. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Dr. Ketchum, I thank you for your post.

    Diane
     
    #29 dianetavegia, Jul 5, 2003
  10. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    The flaw is your argument is that you assume your understanding God's sovereignty is both correct and complete.

    Those who do not hold to Calvinism believe that God's sovereignty somehow allows for effective free will (since the Bible teaches this doctrine).
     
    #30 Baptist Believer, Jul 5, 2003
  11. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    The flaw is your argument is that you assume your understanding God's sovereignty is both correct and complete.

    Those who do not hold to Calvinism believe that God's sovereignty somehow allows for effective free will (since the Bible teaches this doctrine).     </font>[/QUOTE]So, God is sovereign, sort of, some of the time. It is amazing that "free will" is so well-accepted when the words are found in the Bible only in connection with offerings given by OT believers. Must we choose? Yes! Does our will have unlimited freedom and ability? Only if we are God. The point of this whole string is this: either Jesus paid it all or He did not. Either God saved us, or we contributed to the process. I am either saved by grace alone, or by some combination of grace and works.
     
    #31 Major B, Jul 5, 2003
  12. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    Then "clueless" = by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in CHRIST ALONE, because that is how God Saved Me.
     
    #32 Major B, Jul 5, 2003
  13. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    Well, since we sovereign grace believers (aka "calvinists") look to the Bible for our authority, the fact that Calvin taught something part of the time (his exegetical works and his dogmatics are sometimes in conflict, like all of us fallible folks) is irrelevant. As I said in an earlier post, "calvinist" is a nickname we were tagged with. Calvin was a brilliant man, who re-invented Bible exegesis after 1,000 years without very much of it. He pioneered the evangelical understanding of the Holy Spirit, laid down the basic principles that would, a few generations later end up being modern capitalism and republican democracy, and while he was at it, pastored a church or two. However, he was not infallible, and just because we got stuck with his name as a nickname (a thing he would have been horrified by), doesn't mean we go along with everything he wrote.
     
    #33 Major B, Jul 5, 2003
  14. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    In simple terms, Calvin taught that the blood of Christ was sufficient for all, but instead of some. God saved some, but passed by others to their own condemnation. It was not double predestination, even though some have so labelled it.

    Also, Calvin grew in knowledge and undertanding as he aged. His Institutes and later comentaries differ in some points. Now, who of us has not changed our thinking over the years? If you haven't, you haven't lived long enough. When I left seminary, I had ALL the answers. One week in ministry and more questions were raised.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
    #34 Jim1999, Jul 5, 2003
  15. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Those who hold to calvinism believe this as well. This is not the defining issue. The difference is how one defines free will. The non-calvinist cannot define it consistently with the biblical text. Free will is the ability to act in accordance with one's nature. One can be perfectly free wihtout being able to choose contrary to his nature. The only proof we need is to consider God for whom certain things are impossible. Yet God still has free will. So with man, he can have free will while it is impossible for him to do certain things.
     
    #35 Pastor Larry, Jul 5, 2003
  16. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    If two men do two different things (because it is impossible for them to do other things), do these two men have two different natures? Does all mankind have the same nature, or does each individual have a nature different from everyone else?
     
    #36 BrianT, Jul 5, 2003
  17. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    It depends on what you mean by "two different things." If by that, you mean righteousness vs. unrighteousness, then yes, there are two different natures. No unbeliever has a new nature and therefore he does no acts of righteousness including choosing God. If by "two different acts" you mean two different manifestations of unrighteousness or two different manifestations of righteousness then they can have the same nature; they simply express that nature in different ways.

    Simply put, a "nature" is a complex of attributes that leads one to do something. The same attributes might lead to two different things, but manifesting the same general character (i.e., righteousness or unrighteousness).
     
    #37 Pastor Larry, Jul 5, 2003
  18. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    I'm basically asking if you and I have a different nature (even though we both have faith in Christ) since up to this point in time it was impossible for me to accept Calvinism, while it was impossible for you to not accept it. Neither of us had the ability to go against our nature, and it appears our natures are in direct opposition to each others on this point. So if they are opposite on this point, how can they be the same? Why would God predestine one nature to do one thing on a specific doctrine, and another nature to do the exact opposite on that doctrine, while both natures in general are acceptable to him?
     
    #38 BrianT, Jul 5, 2003
  19. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Saw a cartoon once of two astro-physicists with a chalk board full of formulas, then the words "leap of faith" and continuing with more formulas.

    This is what I thought of reading these comments. God has chosen to reveal Himself and given wondrous details of His sovereign grace BUT it doesn't come up with the conclusion non-reformed desire, so somewhere they must type "leap of faith" to come up with THEIR conclusion.

    We have a "more sure Word" and we're not dependent on that old saw that we "don't know what God's plan was but we'll know it by and by".

    Hello? We HAVE His Word. IF we simply accept a totally unable man and totally sovereign God as has been revealed, there really is no need to hedge and say we "don't understand". We do; we just don't like what we read.

    Dr. Bob
    Truth forever on the scaffold.
     
    #39 Dr. Bob, Jul 5, 2003
  20. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Great thesis! [​IMG]
    Election referring only to service, and never salvation? I don't know, but this was a great treatment of the issue.

    This is definitely wrong. This is precisely the caricature Calvinists level at non-Calvinists, and that is justified, and I would agree that is is "semi-pelagianism"
    Calvinists will point out that election by foreknowledge basically leads to the same inescapable preordained events as their position, so it is a weak point.
    This too most reject.

    So this shows that most non-Calvinists here only fully agree with two points of Arminianism, along with the one of Calvinism, and that is why many disclaim falling into one category or the other. Hence, "Biblicists" :D

    [ July 05, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]
     
    #40 Eric B, Jul 5, 2003
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