Are You A Calvinist?

[Pastor Larry]

If Calvinism is real, then why should I even try to live right, accept Christ or even witness to anyone?

Because Christ said to, because it is how God saves people. But here's the question: If Calvinism isn't real, then why try to live right or witness to people? It won't do any good.

If my, and your eternity is already predestined, then why even bother with church?

Because God calls people to salvation and to be a part of his church.

If I am not one of the elect, then why believe Christ, much less trust Him?

If you are not one of the elect, then you won't believe Christ or trust him (which are the same thing by the way).

If you are one of the elect, and your eternity is secure.....and I not one of the elect and doomed to hell....then why do you go to church?

To obey Christ, to fellowship with believers, to serve others, to worship God, to hear and learn the word, etc.

Just to gloat?

No true Calvinist gloats. Calvinism removes any possible basis for gloating.

Tell me why, if my eternity is predetermined before I was even born,,,,,,why should I spend even one minute wondering about it, or serving a God that either saves me or damns me without giving me a choice?

God doesn't save or damn anyone without giving them a choice.

Methinks that you, like many, don't have a clue about Calvinism. But I encourage you to study the Scriptures. It made me a Calvinist when I didn't want to be one. But I had no choice when faced with the clarity of Scriptures.

 

[webdog]

Therefore if you are not a calvinist in belief (whether you hold to the name or not) you are not Biblical in this area. It may be ignorance or it may be willful rejection or it may be tradition (most likely) getting in the way.

...OR John has seen the truth, and it doesn't have a place for calvinism. I mean, can we really be that pompous?!?

 

[Pastor Larry]

I mean, can we really be that pompous?!?

Do you consider it pompous to say "Jesus is God"? I would hope not. In like manner, it is no more pompous to say that Calvinism is biblical.

I think we should distinguish between saying something pompous and saying something pompously. It is entirely possible to be pompous about truth. It is entirely possible to hold the same truth without being pompous.

 

[webdog]

Do you consider it pompous to say "Jesus is God"? I would hope not. In like manner, it is no more pompous to say that Calvinism is biblical.

I think we should distinguish between saying something pompous and saying something pompously. It is entirely possible to be pompous about truth. It is entirely possible to hold the same truth without being pompous.

What I was referring to was Dale's comment that I quoted which was not "Jesus is God". Dale's comment was not "truth".

 

[MB]

Hi Goldie;

Yeah, I was thinking exactly the same thing, although I haven't been here very long.

I think maybe you have the wrong impression of what is going on here. There are some wonderful people who are Calvinist. Christ said to love our neighbors. Calvinist are our neighbors. If I love them I will want them to have the truth. I disagree with Calvinism but the difference between them and me is only semantics. They believe in Christ the same way I do and my Bible says that's all there needs to be to confirm Salvation. Like it or not they are your brothers and sisters. It isn't men who leads us to the truth of the gospel anyway. It's the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit leads you to argue certain points He will want you to do it with LOVE.
MB

 

[Marcia]

Well, ok, then.

I was busy speaking and traveling, which is part of my ministry, and a book I wrote had just come out. Did you have a specific question about me being on the BB? Ask away, TCGreek! Or send a private message through the BB.

 

[Marcia]

John, in Pastor Larry's defense, many arminians refuse to allow themselves to be called such and resort to "Biblicist etc"
We all claim here to be bible believers.
But some of us are monergists (Calvinists) and some of us are some form of Arminian (synergists)

The question comes down to this: are we elect because of our decision or God's decision to elect us?

The Bible teaches us that God has chosen us. We did not choose God.
Therefore I am a calvinist, not because of reading John Calvin since I have never read any of his works.
I have read what the Bible has to say and it is quite clear that God has chosen us.

Therefore if you are not a calvinist in belief (whether you hold to the name or not) you are not Biblical in this area. It may be ignorance or it may be willful rejection or it may be tradition (most likely) getting in the way.

But Calvinism is more than just believing a believer is the elect. And I don't like the false dichotomy: Either a Calvinist or Arminian. These are man-made categories (yes, I know the claim is that they are based on the Bible, but many are not convinced these are the only 2 choices).

Also, I know plenty of non-Calvinists who believe in election.

 

[Marcia]

Hi Goldie;


I think maybe you have the wrong impression of what is going on here. There are some wonderful people who are Calvinist. Christ said to love our neighbors. Calvinist are our neighbors. If I love them I will want them to have the truth. I disagree with Calvinism but the difference between them and me is only semantics. They believe in Christ the same way I do and my Bible says that's all there needs to be to confirm Salvation. Like it or not they are your brothers and sisters. It isn't men who leads us to the truth of the gospel anyway. It's the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit leads you to argue certain points He will want you to do it with LOVE.
MB

I agree with you, but I have met some Calvinists who believe that if one is not a Calvinist, one is not a Christian. And you can see that here on the BB some think that if you reject Calvinism, you reject the teaching of scripture.

I have also heard that Calvinism today is not exactly the same as what Calvin taught. Maybe that should be another thread.

 

[Dale-c]

But Calvinism is more than just believing a believer is the elect. And I don't like the false dichotomy: Either a Calvinist or Arminian. These are man-made categories (yes, I know the claim is that they are based on the Bible, but many are not convinced these are the only 2 choices).

Marcia, either you believe that those who get saved is the result of God's choice or it is a result of Man's choice.

Those are the two sides of the fence. You either believe one or the other. The only other option is to not believe in Christ or salvation at all.

Now within the two sides of that fence, there are many differences. Not all synergists believe in once saves always saved. Some believe you can lose your salvation.

On the Monergist side, some are 4 pointers some are 5 and some believe that infants who die go to heaven, some believe that only some infants go to heaven and yet others believe none go to heaven but they are all monergists.

There is no false dichotomy here.
There is no room for middle ground.

 

[Dale-c]

I agree with you, but I have met some Calvinists who believe that if one is not a Calvinist, one is not a Christian. And you can see that here on the BB some think that if you reject Calvinism, you reject the teaching of scripture.

Marcia, those who believe that you must adhere to the 5 points of calvinism to be saved (people like Fred Phelps) are not even historic and certainly not Biblical calvinists.
They are hyper-calvinists.
There are also those who do not believe you can be saved if you are a calvinist.
There are also those who believe you can earn your way to heaven.

But I do not lump you in with those. Please be careful you do not misrepresent what others believe.

 

[Dale-c]

What I was referring to was Dale's comment that I quoted which was not "Jesus is God". Dale's comment was not "truth".

Yes, I believe it was truth.
The atheist does not believe you comment that Jesus is God is truth, neither do Muslims etc.
Does that mean that you are pompous?
No, it just means that you are speaking the truth.

 

[Pastor Larry]

What I was referring to was Dale's comment that I quoted which was not "Jesus is God". Dale's comment was not "truth".

His comment was that if you do not believe the things commonly called "Calvinism," you don't believe the Bible. That is not pompous, and it wasn't pompously stated. If Calvinism is correct, as I convinced it is, then it is the same truth as "Jesus is God." It is never pompous to believe and state the truth.

That's why I said, we need to avoid being pompous. We need not avoid being truthful.

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, those who believe that you must adhere to the 5 points of calvinism to be saved (people like Fred Phelps) are not even historic and certainly not Biblical calvinists.
They are hyper-calvinists.
There are also those who do not believe you can be saved if you are a calvinist.
There are also those who believe you can earn your way to heaven.

But I do not lump you in with those. Please be careful you do not misrepresent what others believe.

Where did I misrepresent? I gave accounts of true life encounters with people. I never said that all Calvinists believe such and such. I said I had met certain Calvinists who said that.

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, either you believe that those who get saved is the result of God's choice or it is a result of Man's choice.

Those are the two sides of the fence. You either believe one or the other. The only other option is to not believe in Christ or salvation at all.

Now within the two sides of that fence, there are many differences. Not all synergists believe in once saves always saved. Some believe you can lose your salvation.

On the Monergist side, some are 4 pointers some are 5 and some believe that infants who die go to heaven, some believe that only some infants go to heaven and yet others believe none go to heaven but they are all monergists.

There is no false dichotomy here.
There is no room for middle ground.

What makes you think a non-Calvinist does not believe that God draws people to Christ?

I heard someone say once that when we enter heaven, there will be a sign saying, "All who believe may enter" and when you get around to the other side, it says, "Chosen by God."

God is one but He is 3 distinct Persons as well. God chooses man but man is told to believe. The nature of salvation is God's business; no man can know exactly what God does to save someone.

 

[Dale-c]

What makes you think a non-Calvinist does not believe that God draws people to Christ?

Most arminians I know do believe that God draws people. I have never said that they don't.
I know some that will go as far as to say that God MUST draw in order for a man to be saved.
But does God draw irresistibly?
That is the question.
Of course God draws, we all agree on that.
Can or will God regenerate the heart to the point that they WILL believe?

Marcia, you do not seem to understand what calvinists believe, That is ok because there are many of you as I once was.

Let me explain one more way:

Option one: God draws a sinner. God does everything He can or will to save the sinner and convict the sinner of his sin and need for a savior.
At this point it is up to the sinner to accept or reject.

Option two: God the Father has Given this sinner to the Son. The Son has purchased the this sinner with His blood in a substitutionary fashion on the cross.
The Spirit brings conviction to the sinner.
The sinner has his sinful will changed, his heart regenerated by the drawing of the father and is saved. Irresistibly.
The sinner may resist some, he may have resisted before but at the point decreed by God he will repent and believe.

Why? Because God is God and the sinner is not.
The sinner whose heart has been changed now wills to believe God and His Word.

God then does not force man against his will as is so often suggested by those who oppose Calvinism but He changes the will of the man. He changed his heart.

 

[Marcia]

Actually, I'm pretty familiar with what most Calvinists believe. I was responding to your categories and how you defined them.

Thanks for the further explanations.

 

[hsmom22boys]

Option one: God draws a sinner. God does everything He can or will to save the sinner and convict the sinner of his sin and need for a savior.
At this point it is up to the sinner to accept or reject.

Option two: God the Father has Given this sinner to the Son. The Son has purchased the this sinner with His blood in a substitutionary fashion on the cross.
The Spirit brings conviction to the sinner.
The sinner has his sinful will changed, his heart regenerated by the drawing of the father and is saved. Irresistibly.
The sinner may resist some, he may have resisted before but at the point decreed by God he will repent and believe.

Why? Because God is God and the sinner is not.
The sinner whose heart has been changed now wills to believe God and His Word.

God then does not force man against his will as is so often suggested by those who oppose Calvinism but He changes the will of the man. He changed his heart.

Isn't it just beautiful? God gets all of the glory. I just love it. Just wanted to say that you did a WONDERFUL job at explaining this. Thanks!!!:thumbs:

 

[TCGreek]

I'm a six-point calvinist. We all know what the first 5-points are.

Well, the 6th-point is the ability to enjoy the first 5-points.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

What makes you think a non-Calvinist does not believe that God draws people to Christ?

I heard someone say once that when we enter heaven, there will be a sign saying, "All who believe may enter" and when you get around to the other side, it says, "Chosen by God."

God is one but He is 3 distinct Persons as well. God chooses man but man is told to believe. The nature of salvation is God's business; no man can know exactly what God does to save someone.

The illustration you heard someone say is ascribed to John Bunyan, but I can't find a specific reference. I like that illustration alot.

 

[Jesus Freak]

I have some questions for you folks.

If Calvinism is real, then why should I even try to live right, accept Christ or even witness to anyone?

If my, and your eternity is already predestined, then why even bother with church?

If I am not one of the elect, then why believe Christ, much less trust Him?

If you are one of the elect, and your eternity is secure.....and I not one of the elect and doomed to hell....then why do you go to church? Just to gloat?

Tell me why, if my eternity is predetermined before I was even born,,,,,,why should I spend even one minute wondering about it, or serving a God that either saves me or damns me without giving me a choice?

AJ

Exactly!!!!!!!!