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Are You Saving Yourself?
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I was giving you the fodder to answer the question in your own mind. It is often advantageous in a discussion to allow the reader to come up with their own conclusions. I was not avoiding or evading your question.
You put forth the passage of scripture HP on a man's own righteousness. Tell us why? The thread is "Are you saving yourself"?
Tell us, What does the man's own righteousnesses have to do with his salvation? If nothing, why did you put forth the passage in this discussion of "Are you saving Yourself"?
God Bless! :thumbs:
Actually, this verse has nothing to do with Amy's question. This verse speaks of the judgment of nations at the end of the tribulation period at Christ return.
Either way however, no one will be judged righteous unto eternal life apart from being clothed in the righteousness of Christ. One's own righteousnesses plays ZERO part in one's standing as to what has saved them.
This statement is misleading at best. Please clarify the latter.
When you say "Just the same" making righteousness equal to "the grounds of salvation" who's righteousness are you speaking of?
The man's?
Or the imputed righteousness of Christ unto the man?
God Bless! :thumbs:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I did answer your question in post #40.
Now what about the following verse and question? Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
According to this passage, when do the righteous enter life eternal?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: You completely misconstrue what I stated. I said, No man is saved on the account of his own righteousness. “The grounds of salvation is the mercy of God period. Just the same no man will be saved apart from being righteous.” Let me reword it to help you understand my comment. The mercy of God is the only grounds of salvation. That being said, it still remains a fact that no man will be saved apart from them forming intents and acting in accordance to righteousness. “1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.”
Yes as scary as it sounds to some of you on this list, man indeed can act righteously, and is required by God to form their intents in a righteous manner. There are righteous individuals, saved by the grace of God and living righteous lives in spite of all those that would cavil at such being the case. Scripture is replete with illustrations of men and women who were actively choosing righteousness as the rule of their lives, and God accounted their deeds as being righteousness. Further more, if one believes he or she is going to inherit eternal life apart from being righteous, one is self deceived. 1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
Yes, the righteousness spoken of in this verse is indeed the results of the choices of the individual that is following God. If one is not doing righteously, apart from repentance and renewed obedience, they will find that heaven will not be their eternal abode. 1Co 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Amy, this is the last part that I wrote in post #40 that speaks directly to your question. "We do enter into eternal life at salvation, by faith. We have the earnest of our inheritance now, we now have a sure hope and our faith shall be turned to sight at the judgment, IF we have remained steadfast unto the end. Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
HP, This is your answer? Do you think that when Jesus said He gives eternal life that He really meant temporary? Eternal means eternal.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
"Never" perish means "never". It doesn't mean maybe or might or it depends on your faith being weak or strong. To interpret it any other way is to call Christ a liar. Only unbelievers do that.
As far as your scripture reference goes, how does one endure to the end? By their own righteousness? Can't be. God says our righteousness is as filthy rags.
Here's what the Bible says about enduring.
Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
A believer will endure to the end because he is kept by God Himself.
It is very sad to see how you fight the joy and peace that is found in believing Christ when He says you will NEVER perish. Why do you kick against the goads?
Jhn 10:29
My Father, which gave them me,
is greater than all; (that includes you HP)
and no man (that includes you HP)
is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Once you belong to God you are His forever.
You are speaking an oxymoron and do not even realize this.
"No man is saved on the account of his own righteousness".
"......it still remains a fact that no man will be saved apart from them forming intents and acting in accordance to righteousness".
You have a problem. You need to either correct your statement or adjust your view.
God bless! :thumbs:
Is there anyone on the list who finds acting righteously scary or who thinks God does not command you to do righteously?
The point is not whether God commands righteous behavior, He does, the point is does one's own righteous behavior save them, it does not.
Only the imputed righteousness of God will save and those who have received the imputed righteousness of God through faith will show evidence they have received Christ by their righteous living.
Thus the word;
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith withoutthy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Abraham's works of doing what God told him to do declared his faith in God and God imputed unto him righteousness, not for the works, but for the faith!
The works showed his faith.
I don't know any Christian who would "cavil" at such being the case. Those who are of God hear what God says; Jhn 8:47He that is of God heareth God's words:
Amen! :jesus:
Steaver:
Simply said for the layman. God gives us a new identity. We have no capability of changing our identity, anymore than a Zebra can change it's stripes by white washing them with white paint. Underneath, the pure white horse looking animal is still a zebra by nature.
So goes, God's imputed righteousness to man. Abraham was considered righteous because of His faith/trust in God, but it was indeed God who gifted Abraham with the "standing" of righteousness.
I still like to go back to Romans 1 when folks get into these debates.
Basically, Paul emphatically states that man who has not heard the gospel, has in him, from God and his creation, a sense of right and wrong, and an awareness through God's physical creation that he observes that there is a greater power than himself/man. So he is without excuse if he rejects God by worshipping created things rather than the Creator Himself.
Simply said for the layman. God gives us a new identity. We have no capability of changing our identity, anymore than a Zebra can change it's stripes by white washing them with white paint. Underneath, the pure white horse looking animal is still a zebra by nature.
So goes, God's imputed righteousness to man. Abraham was considered righteous because of His faith/trust in God, but it was indeed God who gifted Abraham with the "standing" of righteousness.
I still like to go back to Romans 1 when folks get into these debates.
Basically, Paul emphatically states that man who has not heard the gospel, has in him, from God and his creation, a sense of right and wrong, and an awareness through God's physical creation that he observes that there is a greater power than himself/man. So he is without excuse if he rejects God by worshipping created things rather than the Creator Himself.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
I'm not HP, but I'll chime in anyway (particularly as one who used to believe in "OSAS")....
"And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life and that life is in His Son. He who has [present tense] the Son has life; he who does not have the Son does not have life." 1 John 5:11-12
"Eternal" means without beginning or ending. Obviously those in Christ haven't always had eternal life. Rather, their possesion of eternal life began at a certain point in time. There is nothing the Scriptures that states one's possession of eternal cannot likewise end in time if/when one leaves Christ. And Scriptures are abundantly clear that one can be cut off from Christ (John 15:6 and Romans 11:22, for starters) if we don't abide in Him. If one is cut off from Christ, that one no longer possesses eternal life because that life is in the Son.
"keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 21
So God is indeed able to keep us from falling, but we must also keep ourselves. This is similar to Philippians 2:12-13 where PAUL states that God works in us to will and do His good pleasure, but we must still work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Here's what else the Bible says about enduring:
"...He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death to present you holy and blameless, and irreproachable in His sight--if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard..." Colossians 1:21b-23.
"For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but towards you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off". Romans 11:21-22
(See also the entire book of Hebrews)
John is referring to those plucking out as those who are external to the sheep, not to the sheep themselves (those who are actively listening [present tense] to and following Christ). The believers themselves in Christ must still continue abiding in Him, or they will be broken off as branches (John 15:6)
Believers stand [present tense] by faith (Romans 11:20), but they can also believe in vain (1 Cor 15:2), believe for a while then fall away (Luke 8:13), make ship wreck of their faith (1 Tim 1:19), fail to continue in His goodness and be cut off (Romans 11:22), and otherwise receive the grace of God in vain (2 Cor 6:1).
It is important to remember that eternal life is in Christ.Amy.G said:
"And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life and that life is in His Son. He who has [present tense] the Son has life; he who does not have the Son does not have life." 1 John 5:11-12
"Eternal" means without beginning or ending. Obviously those in Christ haven't always had eternal life. Rather, their possesion of eternal life began at a certain point in time. There is nothing the Scriptures that states one's possession of eternal cannot likewise end in time if/when one leaves Christ. And Scriptures are abundantly clear that one can be cut off from Christ (John 15:6 and Romans 11:22, for starters) if we don't abide in Him. If one is cut off from Christ, that one no longer possesses eternal life because that life is in the Son.
By abiding in Christ (John 15:1-6) which involves keeping His commandments (1 John 3:24). This is of course done by the power of the Spirit as we abide in the Vine; but we are the ones that must "abide"--Christ doesn't "abide" for us.
Interestingly, Jude also exhorts his readers to keep themselves.
"keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 21
So God is indeed able to keep us from falling, but we must also keep ourselves. This is similar to Philippians 2:12-13 where PAUL states that God works in us to will and do His good pleasure, but we must still work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Here's what else the Bible says about enduring:
"...He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death to present you holy and blameless, and irreproachable in His sight--if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard..." Colossians 1:21b-23.
"For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but towards you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off". Romans 11:21-22
(See also the entire book of Hebrews)
John is referring to those plucking out as those who are external to the sheep, not to the sheep themselves (those who are actively listening [present tense] to and following Christ). The believers themselves in Christ must still continue abiding in Him, or they will be broken off as branches (John 15:6)
Believers stand [present tense] by faith (Romans 11:20), but they can also believe in vain (1 Cor 15:2), believe for a while then fall away (Luke 8:13), make ship wreck of their faith (1 Tim 1:19), fail to continue in His goodness and be cut off (Romans 11:22), and otherwise receive the grace of God in vain (2 Cor 6:1).
Not necessarily
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Nope--but being "circumcised" doesn't automatically and once-for-all save a person, does it?webdog said: