Are You Saving Yourself?

[Doubting Thomas]

So God is indeed able to keep us from falling, but we must also keep ourselves. This is similar to Philippians 2:12-13 where PAUL states that God works in us to will and do His good pleasure, but we must still work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

That is incorrect.

Really? So, Jude is incorrect when we states we are to keep ourselves in the love of God (v.21)? Or Paul is incorrect when he states we must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12)? It seems, then, that your problem is with them, not with me.

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Notice we are kept by the power of God through faith--Peter doesn't deny that the faith can indeed be shipwrecked, nor that we must actually continue in the faith. In fact, in Peter's SECOND Epistle he lists several things we need to diligently add to our faith (2 Peter 1:5-7) in order to make our calling and election sure (v.10) and to have an entrance supplied into Christ's heavenly kingdom (v.11).

It's not that I "doubt" the Scriptures--I just doubt the dubious misinterpretations of the Scriptures by the proponents of "OSAS"

 

[Doubting Thomas]

When the heart is circumcised by God it does (Romans 2). It's a done deal.

REALLY? Where does it say that when one's heart is circumcised that it's a "done deal", meaning that one can never fall away? I don't see it...

 

[Agnus_Dei]

REALLY? Where does it say that when one's heart is circumcised that it's a "done deal", meaning that one can never fall away? I don't see it...

Sounds like another Luther...adding to the Bible

In XC
-

 

[webdog]

Sounds like another Luther...adding to the Bible

In XC
-

...or a lack of physiological common sense

Once you are circumcised PHYSICALLY it is a DONE DEAL people. Why do you think God decided to use this language to describe justification? IT'S A DONE DEAL!

Back to your regularly scheduled works salvation... :BangHead:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Doubting Thomas: It's not that I "doubt" the Scriptures--I just doubt the dubious misinterpretations of the Scriptures by the proponents of "OSAS"

HP: And a hearty Amen to that!:thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

Back to your regularly scheduled works salvation... :BangHead:

And a hearty amen to that as well, WD.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: Why do you think God decided to use this language to describe justification? IT'S A DONE DEAL!

HP: If circumcision was a done deal, are you suggesting that all those circumcised are in heaven?

 

[steaver]

Really? So, Jude is incorrect when we states we are to keep ourselves in the love of God (v.21)? Or Paul is incorrect when he states we must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12)? It seems, then, that your problem is with them, not with me.

Jude is very correct. Notice Jude said "in the love of God" and not "saved" as you would want it to read. Notice how Paul said "work out your own salvation" and not "work for your salvation" as you would want it to read.

Paul said, Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Notice the "NOT OF YOURSELVES" part and the "GIFT OF GOD" part?

Notice we are kept by the power of God through faith--Peter doesn't deny that the faith can indeed be shipwrecked, nor that we must actually continue in the faith. In fact, in Peter's SECOND Epistle he lists several things we need to diligently add to our faith (2 Peter 1:5-7) in order to make our calling and election sure (v.10) and to have an entrance supplied into Christ's heavenly kingdom (v.11).

Right, Notice Peter says "to make our calling and election sure " and not "to keep yourself saved" as you would want it to read.

Why are you afraid you will lose the free gift God gave you at rebirth?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Jude is very correct. Notice Jude said "in the love of God" and not "saved" as you would want it to read.

Is there really any difference? Especially in light of the fact that James states the "crown of life" is for those who love the Lord (James 1:12)?

Or in light of what John has to say about loving God and abiding in His love:

"He who has My commandments and keeps them it is he who love Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." John 14:21

"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make our home with him." John 14:23

"If you keep My commandments you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love." John 15:10

"And he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him." 1 John 3:24.

"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments." 1 John 2:3

"But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him." 1 John 2:5

Question: Can anyone be "saved" and not be in Christ?

The answer is of course, 'no':

"And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life and that life is in His Son. He who has [present tense] the Son has life; he who does not have the Son does not have life." 1 John 5:11-12

Notice how Paul said "work out your own salvation" and not "work for your salvation" as you would want it to read.

Where did I say I wanted Paul's statement to read "work for your salvation"? (Hint: the answer is "nowhere"). I did point out that Paul states we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling--God doesn't do that for us.

Paul said, Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Notice the "NOT OF YOURSELVES" part and the "GIFT OF GOD" part?

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that salvation is a gift of God. But Paul is equally clear that we are created in Christ unto good works (Eph 2:10), that we must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8), and that eternal life will be given to those who actually work what is good (Romans 2:5-10).

Also Paul is clear that our continued possession of salvation is contingent on our continuing in the faith and in His goodness:

"...He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death to present you holy and blameless, and irreproachable in His sight--if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard..." Colossians 1:21b-23.

"For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but towards you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off". Romans 11:21-22

Remember, Paul also states it's possible to make shipwreck of your faith (1 Tim 1:19), to believe in vain (1 Cor 15:2) and even to receive God's grace in vain (2 Cor 6:1)

Right, Notice Peter says "to make our calling and election sure " and not "to keep yourself saved" as you would want it to read.

Do you honestly think that "calling and election" has nothing to do with salvation, particularly when Peter connects "making one's calling and election sure" (in v.10) to having an "entrance suppled for [one] into Christ's heavenly kingdom" (in v.11), and connecting both concepts to diligently adding things to our faith (v.5-7)?

Why are you afraid you will lose the free gift God gave you at rebirth?

God Bless! :thumbs:

Why are you afraid of accepting the numerous clear statements of Christ and the Apostles that the free gift of God can indeed be forfeited?

DT

 

[steaver]

Where did I say I wanted Paul's statement to read "work for your salvation"? (Hint: the answer is "nowhere"). I did point out that Paul states we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling--God doesn't do that for us.

Describe "work out" for me please.

If I fail to work out then is my salvation revoked?

If yes, then is it not true that I must work for my salvation?

PLease explain in detail for me to understand the difference between "work out" and "work for" as you would teach this.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Why are you afraid of accepting the numerous clear statements of Christ and the Apostles that the free gift of God can indeed be forfeited?

DT

Because the conditions you have set forth for such is based on works. If works cannot save then works cannot forfeit either. You want it both ways.

God does not say here is a free gift, not by your works, it is a gift by grace, and then say now since you have my free gift you must now work to keep it.

That is just plain erronious thinking and erronious biblical doctrine. Either it is free or it takes work, which do you want? You can't have it both ways. Free and work are opposed to each other.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Describe "work out" for me please.

"Work out" is understood in its juxtaposition to "work in". Since God is working in us to will and do His good pleasure, we must be cooperating with this grace by actually working out in our lives (thoughts, words, and actions) God's will and good pleasure.

In other words, it's bearing fruit. Peter said in his second epistle that if we diligently add all those things (culminating in LOVE) to our faith which he lists in 2 Peter 1:5-7, then we will be neither barren nor unfruitful in our knowledge of Him (v. 8). This "diligent adding", this "making our calling and election sure", is working out our salvation. Likewise in verse 3 when Peter states God has given us all that pertains to life and godliness through our knowledge of Christ, this is God "working IN" us. It's only because God is working IN us--and has given us all that pertains to life and godliness in Christ--that we can diligently add those things to our faith and thus be fruitful in the working OUT of our salvation.

Returning to Paul, he wrote to the Galatians that what actually "avails" is "faith working through love". So when we are actually expressing our faith in loving acts towards God and our neighbor, we are in essense working OUT our salvation.

And we must love in deed and in truth, not just in word and in tongue (1 John 3:18). And if we love Christ, we will keep His commandments (John 14:15, 21). Those who keep His commandments abide in Him (John 15:10, 1 John 3:24)

If I fail to work out then is my salvation revoked?

Is it forfeited? yes

If yes, then is it not true that I must work for my salvation?

No, it's not. (see below)

PLease explain in detail for me to understand the difference between "work out" and "work for" as you would teach this.

(See above.) Christ's perfectly obedient life and death objectively worked FOR our salvation. Yet that objective work of Christ doesn't automatically subjectively save anyone--one subjectively has to HAVE Christ and be IN Christ to have eternal life since life is in the Son (1 John 5:11-12). One initially comes to be in Christ through faith, repentence, and baptism, not by some accumulated merit of our own since none of us can perfectly keep the law. Once in Christ by faith, our lives must bear fruit. This bearing fruit is the working OUT of our salvation. None of us can bear the fruit of salvation unless he is in Christ; yet when he is in Christ this fruit doesn't come passively, necessarily, and automatically--the one must actively abide in Christ to bear fruit. The believer has to choose to abide in Christ; if he chooses otherwise and doesn't abide in the Vine, he will ultimately fail to bear fruit (ie work OUT his salvation) and be cut off as a branch (John 15:6)

If works cannot save then works cannot forfeit either.

That doesn't follow. I may freely receive a gift from someone, but subsequently lose it through neglect or by tossing it away. If one fails to continue in God's goodness he will be cut off (Romans 11:22); if one fails to abide in the Vine (Christ), he will be cut off as a branch.

You want it both ways.

Not me--It's Christ and the Apostles who made the statements I quoted above.

God does not say here is a free gift, not by your works, it is a gift by grace, and then say now since you have my free gift you must now work to keep it.

Yet, faith without works is dead and cannot save (James 2). And Paul said that what avails is faith working through love (Gal 5:6)

That is just plain erronious thinking and erronious biblical doctrine. Either it is free or it takes work, which do you want? You can't have it both ways. Free and work are opposed to each other.

It's "OSAS" that's the erroneous doctrine, my friend. (It is interesting how in my last post I listed several Scriptures making my case, but instead of dealing with these verses you've responded with syllogisms.)

 

[steaver]

Very good post my friend. It was well laid out and I can tell you spent some thoughtful time on it .

However at the end of the day it still demands work for salvation rather than work because of salvation. I work because I have been saved like James says, if I don't show any works then I obviously never have been saved.

That doesn't follow. I may freely receive a gift from someone, but subsequently lose it through neglect or by tossing it away.

"Neglect" is not loss. Here is the problem with the "tossing it away". When one receives the "gift of God" they become a new creature. Christ and the believer become one. Christ discribes this as a birth (John 3). One cannot toss away themselves. Christ and I are one through regeneration. I cannot escape what God has made me, nor would I find any reason to want to do so.

A bird is a bird, a cow is a cow, a human is a human after it's own kind ALWAYS!

Once created a child of God, born of God's will not man's will (John 1), one will forever remain what God has created them to be (John 4, 10).

"Work out" is understood in its juxtaposition to "work in". Since God is working in us to will and do His good pleasure, we must be cooperating with this grace by actually working out in our lives (thoughts, words, and actions) God's will and good pleasure.

In other words, it's bearing fruit. Peter said in his second epistle that if we diligently add all those things (culminating in LOVE) to our faith which he lists in 2 Peter 1:5-7, then we will be neither barren nor unfruitful in our knowledge of Him (v. 8). This "diligent adding", this "making our calling and election sure", is working out our salvation. Likewise in verse 3 when Peter states God has given us all that pertains to life and godliness through our knowledge of Christ, this is God "working IN" us. It's only because God is working IN us--and has given us all that pertains to life and godliness in Christ--that we can diligently add those things to our faith and thus be fruitful in the working OUT of our salvation.

Returning to Paul, he wrote to the Galatians that what actually "avails" is "faith working through love". So when we are actually expressing our faith in loving acts towards God and our neighbor, we are in essense working OUT our salvation.

And we must love in deed and in truth, not just in word and in tongue (1 John 3:18). And if we love Christ, we will keep His commandments (John 14:15, 21). Those who keep His commandments abide in Him (John 15:10, 1 John 3:24)

Very good exposition! :thumbs:

However it has nothing to do with losing salvation and everything to do with loving your Father and producing fruit.

Nowhere does it say forfeiture is the alternative, right? That is your injecture into the passage, right?

Can I ask you one more question about this passage? You have been kind enough to take the time to expo this and did a good job I must add (except for the injecture of forfeiture). Here is the question....

What is the "fear and trembling" spoken of? It says work it out with fear and trembling. What does this part mean do you think?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: If works cannot save then works cannot forfeit either.

HP: Just wondering how you came to that conclusion?

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Very good post my friend. It was well laid out and I can tell you spent some thoughtful time on it .

Thanks for the kind words. You are certainly more gracious than most with whom I've debated/discussed this issue.

However at the end of the day it still demands work for salvation rather than work because of salvation.

Not at all--particularly given the distinction between work FOR our salvation (which Christ did) and work OUT our salvation (which we do).

I work because I have been saved like James says, if I don't show any works then I obviously never have been saved.

First, I cannot disagree with your first clause at all. We indeed work because we have been saved (past tense)--our initial moment of salvation when we're first united to Christ and were "washed, sanctified, and justified" (1 Cor 6:11).

However, your second clause doesn't necessarily follow. Certainly if one NEVER bears fruit then there's a good chance that one has NEVER been saved. On the other hand, it is possible for those who initially show evidence of spiritual growth, steming from their initial salvation experience, to ultimately fall away and thus "lose their salvation"--for instance in Luke 8:13 where one believes for a while, but then falls away. Indeed, we must take an active role in abiding in Christ, in cultivating our faith so it bears fruit. This doesn't happen automatically/necessarily/passively or else (1)Paul wouldn't have to say we must "be careful to maintain good works" (Titus 3:8); and (2) Peter wouldn't have to say that we must "be diligent" to add to our faith, virtue, knowledge, temperence, patience, godliness, kindness, and love (2 Peter 1:5-7).

"Neglect" is not loss.

But it can be if it's prolonged. For instance, if I neglect to properly feed myself and take care of my body, I can get sick and die. Likewise, if I fail to cultivate my faith by adding to it virtue, knowledge, temperence, patience, godliness, kindness, and love, then I can ultimately become barren and unfruitful in my knowledge of Christ (cf. 2 Peter 1:8). Jesus said that unfruitful brances will be cut off from the Vine (ie Himself) and burned (John 15:6).

Here is the problem with the "tossing it away". When one receives the "gift of God" they become a new creature. Christ and the believer become one. Christ discribes this as a birth (John 3). One cannot toss away themselves.

To the contrary, one can toss away himself by committing suicide. Spiritually one can do this by failing to abide in Christ (John 15:1-6) and by failing to continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:22)

Christ and I are one through regeneration. I cannot escape what God has made me, nor would I find any reason to want to do so.

A bird is a bird, a cow is a cow, a human is a human after it's own kind ALWAYS!

Yet, we do not start off our life being "sheep", do we? We become "sheep". However, if this is the case why can't we ultimately revert back to what we were before? Where does it say "Once a Sheep, Always a Sheep"?
Or another way to look at it, just because one is a sheep doesn't mean that one cannot stop listening to Christ and then wander off.

The writer of Hebrews is quite clear that we can depart from God if we're not careful:
"Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God." Hebrews 3:12
The meaning of this passage is obvious--it is possible for the brethren to depart from God through a heart of unbelief.

Once created a child of God, born of God's will not man's will (John 1), one will forever remain what God has created them to be (John 4, 10).

Not according to the writer of Hebrews; nor according to Christ for those who fail to abide in Him; nor according to Paul for those who do not continue in God's goodness.


In reply to my description of "working OUT" one's salvation as essentially bearing fruit, you said this...

Very good exposition! :thumbs:

However it has nothing to do with losing salvation and everything to do with loving your Father and producing fruit.

As I pointed out several times above, ultimately failing to continue in Christ, and thus failing to continue bearing fruit, results in removal from the Vine--ie loss of salvation. In Romans 11:18-22, those Gentile believers who fail to continue in God's goodness share the same fate as the unbelieving Jews--they too are cut off.

Nowhere does it say forfeiture is the alternative, right? That is your injecture into the passage, right?

But getting one's self cut off from Christ (in whom is eternal life--1 John 5:11-12), by failing to abide and becoming fruitless, is "forfeiture", is it not?

Can I ask you one more question about this passage? You have been kind enough to take the time to expo this and did a good job I must add (except for the injecture of forfeiture). Here is the question....

What is the "fear and trembling" spoken of? It says work it out with fear and trembling. What does this part mean do you think?

Well, basically in light of all the Scriptural exhortations to continue and the warnings against falling away and against being fruitless, I believe this means we shouldn't be presumptious about our eternal status based on a one-time experience of salvation. I think this is somewhat similar to Paul's admonition to the Gentile believers at Rome not to be haughty "but fear":

"Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand [present tense] by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either." Romans 11:20-21

The reason they are to "fear" is that they could potentially share the same fate as the unbelieving Jews--be "broken off"--if they don't continue to stand by faith.

 

[steaver]

Not at all--particularly given the distinction between work FOR our salvation (which Christ did) and work OUT our salvation (which we do).

You have three choices;

a) Christ alone worked for our salvation.

b) We alone work for our salvation.

c) Christ and we together work for our salvation.

Which one do you choose?

However, your second clause doesn't necessarily follow. Certainly if one NEVER bears fruit then there's a good chance that one has NEVER been saved. On the other hand, it is possible for those who initially show evidence of spiritual growth, steming from their initial salvation experience, to ultimately fall away and thus "lose their salvation"--for instance in Luke 8:13 where one believes for a while, but then falls away. Indeed, we must take an active role in abiding in Christ, in cultivating our faith so it bears fruit. This doesn't happen automatically/necessarily/passively or else (1)Paul wouldn't have to say we must "be careful to maintain good works" (Titus 3:8);

Do you not see how you are ignoring very important points Paul has made in this passage you reference?

Tts 3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


You want to believe that after Paul expressly states that you are saved not by works of righteousness, but according to his mercy, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; that Paul then states just the opposite in verse 8 and states you must maintain good works to be saved?

Tts 3:7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

...that after Paul states we are justified by his grace he goes on to state we must maintain good works to be saved?

Tts 3:8[This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.


So why then does Paul state to "be careful to maintain good works"?

Well Paul plainly tells us why...."These things are good and profitable unto men".

Absoultely nothing said in verse 8 that would suggest that works of righteousness plays any part in one's justification and salvation. In fact, Paul clearly states just the contrary one breath of words before.

So why do you put forth Titus 3:8 as support for your view that one can lose their salvation for not working righteousness?

Can I have an answer to this question before we move on to another passage?

Can you humble yourself and admit that this particular passage has nothing to do with maintaining salvation?

You do not have to abandon your view of one losing salvation, but surely you can see that this passage has nothing to do with righteous works maintaining salvation.

Surely you can see that Paul actually states the exact opposite of what you believe this passage to be saying when he makes it emphatically clear that one is saved by grace, mercy and regeneration? And Paul states "not by works of righteousness".

Can you promise to never reference Titus 3:8 again when trying to convince another that they could lose their salvation?

God Bless! raying:

 

[eightball]

By His grace.........................

Grace = Unmerited favor

Unmerited = undeserved

Looks like we didn't save ourselves.

Also looks like we aren't responsible for keeping ourselves saved either. Grace, kinda kills two birds with one stone...........both works and maintaining a righteous/justified standing(identity before God).

The most important thing to remember is how God views you.

Did we do something that can be termed helping out in the salvation process............Absolutely Not!

Did our God given free will have something to do with salvation yet not in and of itself create us or save us or sanctify us from our once dead-to-God state........I believe so.

I think that the big stumbling block with folks is that when they perceive God's omnipotence, they perceive it in a way that can't accept the paradigm that God can allow free will of humanity within that all-encompassing omnipotence. It just boggles and messes with our finite minds. Of course God is an eternity beyond our finite understanding.

So when the bible says that God will most assuredly meet the true seeker of Him, we see that the seeker, who is not yet saved is applying his/her will or chooser, to find or approach God. Yet we know that God is unapproachable by the unredeemed. God does, however meet or answer that willful, decision or desire to approach Him, via the H.S.'s tug and work on the soul.

Man cannot, I repeat cannot, make himself into a new creature/creation. That involves exhanging the old adamic life for the new life in the new Adam/Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit takes residence in the dead human soul, and now we have a new person who is alive to God and now dead to the world. The old nature is buried at the cross in Jesus's eternally past/present/future life, and now arises a new human life in Christ, that is Spiritually identified with Christ's crucified, buried, risen, and resurrected life. (Gal. 2:20)(Romans 6).

This new life is not a slave to sin, but has the ability to choose to sin or not to sin, as the old Adamic nature is gone.......! The flesh is still alive and open to sin's bombardment........and allowsaccess to our mind and emotions to lay siege against the new resident king.......Jesus and or His Spirit. We metaphorically have a throne within our souls. As Christians that metaphorical throne has either a big old letter "S"(Self/Flesh), or a big letter "C"(Christ) enthroned on it. It is a daily reckoning, as Paul so succinctly explained in Roman's 7, with his travails of flesh versus Spirit.

Yes, God wants willing participants in salvation, not those that assume that it was inevitable and beyond their imagination or control. As we participate in the approaching of His throne, He bestows upon us that which we cannot conjure..........His life, His pardon, His adoption contract.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Note the words 'in doing this.' What are suppose to do, and what effect does this passage say it has upon us? Can anyone read into this text, 'nothing we do has any bearing whatsoever on our salvation?'

 

[Doubting Thomas]

You have three choices;

a) Christ alone worked for our salvation.

b) We alone work for our salvation.

c) Christ and we together work for our salvation.

Which one do you choose?

I'd say "D"--Christ worked FOR our salvation, and we working with Christ as we work OUT our salvation. I wrote as much in my past two posts: we work OUT what God has worked (and is working) IN.

Do you not see how you are ignoring very important points Paul has made in this passage you reference?

Tts 3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

Noticed He "saved us", with "saved" being past tense. This is referring to our regeneration (our initial moment of salvation) which, of course, our "works of righteousness" had nothing to do with.

Tts 3:8[This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.


So why then does Paul state to "be careful to maintain good works"?

Well Paul plainly tells us why...."These things are good and profitable unto men".

Why are they "good and profitable unto men"? What are they "good and profitable" for? Well, for one thing Paul goes on to say down in verse 14 that works should be maintained so that one "may not be unfruitful". And we've already seen how the fruitless branch will be cut off from Christ (John 15:6) and that those who are fruitful are the ones who have an entrance supplied to them into Christ's everlasting kingdom (2 Peter 1:8-11). James teaches that faith without works is dead and cannot ultimately profit for (final) salvation (James 2:14-26). And Paul himself elsewhere stated that eternal life will be rendered to those who actually work what is good (Romans 2:5-10)

Absoultely nothing said in verse 8 that would suggest that works of righteousness plays any part in one's justification and salvation.

Again, it depends on what aspect of salvation and which justification one is referring to. Obviously verse 5 refers back to our initial moment of salvation when we were regenerated and initially justified. As Paul pointed out, our "works of rigtheousness" had nothing to do with this (see also Eph 2:1-9). However our works are involved in our subsequent and final justification (James 2:14-26; Romans 2:5-10; John 5:28-29) and in working OUT our salvation.

So why do you put forth Titus 3:8 as support for your view that one can lose their salvation for not working righteousness?

The immediate point I was making with that reference was in regards to the fact that works don't come passively/necessarily/automatically after one is initially saved; rather, as Paul states one has to be careful to maintain good works. However, Paul writes to the Romans that God will render to each one according to his deeds: "eternal life to those who by patient continuence in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality..." (Romans 2:5-7--see also verses 8-10).

Can I have an answer to this question before we move on to another passage?

I just did.

Can you humble yourself and admit that this particular passage has nothing to do with maintaining salvation?

I disagree, for the reasons I stated above once the grammar is taken into consideration and once the passage is read in light of the entire Pauline corpus, and indeed in light of the entire NT.

You do not have to abandon your view of one losing salvation, but surely you can see that this passage has nothing to do with righteous works maintaining salvation.

But it has to do with the fact that we must carefully maintain good works; works that keep us from being unfruitful (v.14); and works that elsewhere Paul stated that according to which we will be given Eternal life--ie our final salvation (Romans 2:5-10). That these works must be "carefully maintained" means that they don't come passively/necessarily/automatically from the fact we were once intially saved at some point in the past.

Christ Himself said it's those who do the will of the Father that will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. (Matthew 7:21)

He also stated: "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29)

Surely you can see that Paul actually states the exact opposite of what you believe this passage to be saying when he makes it emphatically clear that one is saved by grace, mercy and regeneration? And Paul states "not by works of righteousness".

Surely you can see that Paul is using the past tense in referring back to the believers' regeneration (ie, initial salvation) in which a man's "works of righteousness" played no role.

Now, can you concede, based on the statements of Christ and Paul, that our final salvation, at the Judgement, will be in accordance to our good works (John 5:28-29; Romans 2:5-10)?

Will you acknowledge that faith without works is dead and thus profitless for our ultimate salvation (James 2:14-26)? And that one needs to diligently add to their faith virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, kindness and love so that he won't be unfruitful but will rather thereby make his calling and election sure and have an entrance supplied for him into Christ's heavenly kingdom (2 Peter 1:5-11)?

Will you admit that Paul teaches that one must continue in God's goodness or else he'll be cut off (Romans 11:22)? And that the believer will be presented blameless if he steadfastly continues in the faith and is not moved away (Colossians 1:23)?

Do you see that one must continue to abide in Christ and His love? That one must abide in order to bear fruit, and that fruitless non-abiding branches will ultimately be cut off from Christ? (John 15:1-6). And that those who keep His commandments are the ones abiding in Christ and His love (John 15:10; 1 John 3:24)? Do you also see that it's possible for one's love to grow cold (Matthew 24:12)? And do you agree admit that what Paul teaches that what 'avails' is "faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6)?

Will you agree that it's possible to believe for a while then fall away (Luke 8:13); that it's possible for one of the brethren to depart from the living God (Hebrews 3:12); that it's possible to make shipwreck of one's faith (1 Tim 1:19); and that it's possible to receive the grace of God in vain (2 Cor 6:1)?

Do you now recognize, in light of the Scriptural passages listed above, that what passes for the "gospel" in modern "Evangelicalism" is often truncated, not taking into account the full truth of the New Testament regarding salvation, justification, faith, works, etc?

 

[steaver]

Now, can you concede, based on the statements of Christ and Paul, that our final salvation, at the Judgement, will be in accordance to our good works (John 5:28-29; Romans 2:5-10)?

Wow!

Two salvations?

You make Christ's work void. Grace, mercy and regeneration worthless.

Noticed He "saved us", with "saved" being past tense. This is referring to our regeneration (our initial moment of salvation) which, of course, our "works of righteousness" had nothing to do with.

I noticed that, it is why I posted the verse! Saved is past tense indeed. It is finished, done, already happened, settled in heaven, justified forever, eternal life.

Works cannot save you past, works cannot save you present, works cannot save you future!

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Can you "notice" something for me?

Paul states "we have believed in Jesus Christ". Notice this is "past tense" and Paul in the same breath states "that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law"

This totally crushes the notion that there are two salvations at work, a past by grace and a future by works. Totally crushes it!


I have known and know many believers who believe a person can lose their salvation. You are the first I have encountered who believes a person must be saved twice. Once by grace and faith and then again by works of righteousness.

You stand alone as far as I know. I don't even think HP believes such a thing. Maybe he does, will find out.

I guess the theif on the cross and all of the other death bed confessions wasn't enough for them. They had no works afterwards to save themselves.

God Bless! :thumbs: