Are You Saving Yourself?

[steaver]

DT...I've never posited two different salvations--just the biblical fact that biblical salvation has a begining in time (initial salvation), an ongoing aspect, and a final realization (final salvation).

We are saved, are being saved and will be saved. ALL one salvation by grace of God through faith and is the part that eludes your understanding.

You say that the "initial" saving is by grace through faith and then the final salvation is by our works of righteousness. This is nothing less than two salvations. One by grace and one by works.

James makes it very clear that works of righteousness justifies our faith. It declares our faith. The works themselves do not justify the soul unto salvation. The works only show we truly have faith in Christ.

DT....And do see now, that given the identity of the "works of law", that I don't disagree?

The "identity of the works of the law" is the entire law! ANd this law will not justify no man unto salvation.

DT....Do you also see how JAMES demolishes your misinterpretation of Paul?:

James complements my interpretation of Paul. You do not understand James.

“What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can FAITH SAVE HIM?” (James 2:14)

This is a rhetorical answer to which the answer is obviously “no”.

“Thus faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead” (James 2:17)

(And a dead faith ain’t gonna save anybody)

Amen! Something we can agree on.

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?” (James 2:22-23)

James clearly states that ABRAHAM was himself justified by works (just not the “works of the TORAH” ie circumcision) and not by faith only.

“You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” (James 2:14)

James clearly shows how Abraham declared his faith in God BY HIS WORKS.

I noticed that in all your quotes from James you let this one out, the final conclusion James makes after teaching how Abraham's works showed his faith in God....

Jam 2:23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

The fullfillment was the BELIEVING!!!!

You are making the same mistake as many others in letting James' explanation of how works shows a man has true faith confuse the gospel of grace alone through faith.

DT....So seeing how Paul, James, and Jesus destroy with your misinterpretation and proof texting of Galatians 2:16, will you agree never to use that verse again in trying to deny that works of loving obedience have nothing to do with our ongoing justification and final moment of salvation at the Judgment?

loving obedience has everything to do with our ongoing sanctification through the blood of Christ and has nothing to do with any final moment of salvation for the true believer....

Rom 8:1¶[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

DT...Since you've incredibly conceded all of this, will you now acknowledge the logical implication of the facts which you conceded--that a believer in Christ can actually fall away and lose his salvation, and that, therefore, OSAS is incorrect? :applause:

I look forward to your reply (or at least the next scripture passage you decide to jump to).

None of those passages ever implied or said a born of God believer can lose their salvation. However, they did say exactly what you said they did in your post of them and therefore I agreed with your post.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: You are making the same mistake as many others in letting James' explanation of how works shows a man has true faith confuse the gospel of grace alone through faith.

HP: Does James say that works show that a man has faith or not? Does the possibility exist that even you could be deceived as to your standing before God? What offers evidence that you are not deceived and what offers solid evidence that one is deceived?

Can one have faith and not works? Can one have faith while in possession of an evil conscience? Was James simply confusing the gospel of grace through faith or not? What did James mean when he spoke of dead faith? Will dead faith save you? How do I know whether or not your faith is valid or dead?? Are you going to tell us we know by faith whether or not our faith is dead or alive? Is it faith by faith that is by faith?

So you say you have faith. Does your self-claim of having faith establish, maintain, or prove your faith? Can or will faith alone save you?

I believe it to be an understatement to say that possibly another reading of James may have somewhat to offer us all.

 

[steaver]

HP: Does James say that works show that a man has faith or not?

Jam 2:18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Does the possibility exist that even you could be deceived as to your standing before God?

No.

2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Jhn 10:4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

........just to name a few.

What offers evidence that you are not deceived

See above.

and what offers solid evidence that one is deceived?

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 3:6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 3:7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1Jo 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 3:10¶In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


You have many good questions. I will get to the others later.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
HP: Does the possibility exist that even you could be deceived as to your standing before God?

Steaver: No.

HP: I would see this as a misunderstanding of the nature of faith. It is impossible to hold something by faith yet at the same time know somthing by absolute knoiwledge. Either we have faith or we know something absolutely, but never the twain shall meet. When you deny the possibility of deception you eliminate faith. If we hold something by faith, the posssibility of deception must exist to one degree or another.

 

[DHK]

Quote:
HP: Does the possibility exist that even you could be deceived as to your standing before God?

Steaver: NO

HP: I would see this as a misunderstanding of the nature of faith. It is impossible to hold something by faith yet at the same time know somthing by absolute knoiwledge. Either we have faith or we know something absolutely, but never the twain shall meet. When you deny the possibility of deception you eliminate faith. If we hold something by faith, the posssibility of deception must exist to one degree or another.

You have a grave misunderstanding of James' discussion of faith. Look at only two verses in the text:

James 2:19-20 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James speak of demons "having faith" in God. Obviously it is a faith that believes that God exists, but not a saving faith. They have not put their faith in Christ, that is in the redemptive work of Christ that it will save them. In fact nothing could be farther from the truth.

Verse 20 is in an interesting verse.
In the Greek the word "faith" has a definite article in front of it, "the," which is not translated in the English. Thus it could be translated:

O..man that "the" faith without works is dead, or:
O..man that "the" (that kind of faith) without works is dead.
The comparison is being made between the faith of one who is putting their trust in the Lord or a believers faith, and the faith of a demon, or a faith that intellectually acknowledges the existence of a being. I have faith that the Canadian Prime Minister is Stephen Harper. It has become a historical fact, one that cannot be denied. But I do not have faith that a Prime Minister can save me from a Christless eternity. I do not put my faith IN him for that purpose.

 

[steaver]

HP: I would see this as a misunderstanding of the nature of faith. It is impossible to hold something by faith yet at the same time know somthing by absolute knoiwledge. Either we have faith or we know something absolutely, but never the twain shall meet.

According to God's word you are very mistaken.

There is a greek word which is used when expressing "absolute" knowledge of something. It is "ginosko". You will find this in Strong's Concordance under number 1097. Strong's defines this word as follows....a prol. form of a primary verb: to "know" (absolutely) in a great variety of applications and with many impl.

Now that you ginosko that ginosko means absolute knowledge you can check out which verses uses this absolute knowledge verb.

Here is just a sample;

Jhn 10:14I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.



Both "know" and "known" in this verse is from the greek word "ginosko" meaning "absolute" knowledge. Does Jesus know with absolute knowledge who His sheep are? Of course He does and you would not argue He is not quite sure. And just the same, Jesus' sheep know with an absolute knowledge who He is intimately. The scripture declares this so with the word "ginosko".

So yes I have faith in Christ, that all that is written of Him is true and He is able to save me to the uttermost. I live by faith because He is yet unseen of me by my own eyes, however I know with absolute knowledge that He is because of the Spirit He gave me at regeneration.

So faith and absolute knowledge most certainly do coexist within all born again believers. If one does not have this knowledge of Christ living in them then they should as Paul said, examine themselves (2Cor 13).

Since you have no absolute knowledge of Christ HP, how can you come to this board and attempt to persuade others that your view is correct? For all you "know" HP, it could be you who is deceived?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Back to your list of questions....

Can one have faith and not works?

No. True faith is expressed in good works. However, not all of our works will be judged "good". We will all experience some "bad" works which disappear in the Refiner's fire and some rewards with them, and we will all experience some "good" works and be rewarded for them. These are deeds while done in the body (2Cor 5:10) . Jesus said, not even a cup of cool water given away will go unrewarded.

Can one have faith while in possession of an evil conscience?

You'll have to elaborate a bit on this one. I'm not sure how to answer as is.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

HP....Was James simply confusing the gospel of grace through faith or not?

Not.

What did James mean when he spoke of dead faith?

A dead faith is basically no faith. James speaks of giving God lip service, or at least giving other professing Christians lip service. James is teaching that just saying you have faith, while showing no righteous works that one could see Christ living in you, is a dead faith, or in other words no faith, a false profession.

Answer this for yourself, Does saying you have faith make it true? I think you would agree it does not. So says James.

Jam 2:14¶What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


Jam 2:18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

The "saying" needs to be shown true by the "working". But James makes it perfectly clear that it is the "believing" which justifies. The works will support the truth of one's faith.

Jam 2:23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


And James concludes as would I.....

Jam 2:22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


If you could just meditate upon this verse (22) you could see that faith stands as the justifier and the works come forth because of faith. And therefore by the works was the faith "made perfect" or brought to maturity.

Thus brethern, be careful to maintian good works.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Apostle Peter)

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

HP....Will dead faith save you?

No. Those in Christ have past from death unto life through faith. This faith is alive because Christ is alive in you.

How do I know whether or not your faith is valid or dead??

You would have to experience my life personally for some time to see if my works were consistant with love and kindness. If I walked even as Christ walked, in love expressed in service to others.

Are you going to tell us we know by faith whether or not our faith is dead or alive? Is it faith by faith that is by faith?

James challenges the professor of faith in Christ to examine their works, or lack thereof in serving others. Declaring that just saying you have faith cannot save you, it must be real and real faith produces good works.

Jam 2:15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

Jam 2:16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

So you say you have faith. Does your self-claim of having faith establish, maintain, or prove your faith?

It does not. Just as I have been saying because James is saying such.

Can or will faith alone save you?

Grace alone through faith in Christ alone is what saves. Because of the grace, regeneration and faith many good works will come forth from the true children of God.

I believe it to be an understatement to say that possibly another reading of James may have somewhat to offer us all.

#1 There is only one truthful reading. #2 Works justifying souls is not it. #3 Works justifying faith is.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: James challenges the professor of faith in Christ to examine their works, or lack thereof in serving others. Declaring that just saying you have faith cannot save you, it must be real and real faith produces good works.

HP: We have been told repeatedly on this list that all believers are sinners and liars. How many works in the classification of ‘good’ must be present in order to out way the ‘bad’ works so many on this list say is the normal occurrence for all believers? Which works are the solid evidence of ones standing before God? Which ones are we to believe prove our salvation and faith as secure? Scriptures would be helpful.

 

[steaver]

HP: We have been told repeatedly on this list that all believers are sinners and liars. How many works in the classification of ‘good’ must be present in order to out way the ‘bad’ works so many on this list say is the normal occurrence for all believers? Which works are the solid evidence of ones standing before God? Which ones are we to believe prove our salvation and faith as secure? Scriptures would be helpful.

More questions, but you really are not interested in searching for truth, are you HP? You simply stand in defiance shaking your fist towards the grace of God.

But for the sake of those wanting to learn I will keep on searching the scriptures and asking God for wisdom to answer your questions.

HP: How many works in the classification of ‘good’ must be present in order to out way the ‘bad’ works so many on this list say is the normal occurrence for all believers?

I don't think it matters what the list say. What does God's word say about it? 1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

It is not a matter of "losing" your standing before God in Christ. It is a matter of ever having a standing before God in Christ. Examine yourselves, Paul states.

The works do not justify the soul, the works justify the said faith. Keep James in his context. James does not go against Paul and Paul makes it perfectly clear that works do not do the justifying of the soul before God.

HP: Which works are the solid evidence of ones standing before God?

The works of Jesus Christ and faith in His works.

Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Which ones are we to believe prove our salvation and faith as secure? Scriptures would be helpful.

Our faith is secure in Christ alone through regeneration (see above reference). We are saved unto good works...

Eph 2:10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We should walk in these works. These works do not save (Eph 2:9) .

Let the scriptures judge yourself HP. We all make the mistake from time to time and some too many times of wanting to be The Judge of condemnation of our brothers and sisters in Christ. They say Christians are very good at putting a bullet in the head of a wounded brother or sister instead of getting down and lifting them up.

God bless! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: More questions, but you really are not interested in searching for truth, are you HP? You simply stand in defiance shaking your fist towards the grace of God.

HP: That is an outlandish and unjust personal attack and an affront to any sense of reason or justice.

 

[steaver]

HP: That is an outlandish and unjust personal attack and an affront to any sense of reason or justice.

You do then want to know the truth of this matter? Then I am sorry. I was getting a vibe from your post that what I have been showing you from scripture was going in one ear and out the other without any consideration.

What do you say about this discovery I presented a few post back.....

HP: I would see this as a misunderstanding of the nature of faith. It is impossible to hold something by faith yet at the same time know somthing by absolute knoiwledge. Either we have faith or we know something absolutely, but never the twain shall meet.

Steaver: According to God's word you are very mistaken.

There is a greek word which is used when expressing "absolute" knowledge of something. It is "ginosko". You will find this in Strong's Concordance under number 1097. Strong's defines this word as follows....a prol. form of a primary verb: to "know" (absolutely) in a great variety of applications and with many impl.

Now that you ginosko that ginosko means absolute knowledge you can check out which verses uses this absolute knowledge verb.

Here is just a sample;

Jhn 10:14I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.



Both "know" and "known" in this verse is from the greek word "ginosko" meaning "absolute" knowledge. Does Jesus know with absolute knowledge who His sheep are? Of course He does and you would not argue He is not quite sure. And just the same, Jesus' sheep know with an absolute knowledge who He is intimately. The scripture declares this so with the word "ginosko".

So yes I have faith in Christ, that all that is written of Him is true and He is able to save me to the uttermost. I live by faith because He is yet unseen of me by my own eyes, however I know with absolute knowledge that He is because of the Spirit He gave me at regeneration.

So faith and absolute knowledge most certainly do coexist within all born again believers. If one does not have this knowledge of Christ living in them then they should as Paul said, examine themselves (2Cor 13).

Since you have no absolute knowledge of Christ HP, how can you come to this board and attempt to persuade others that your view is correct? For all you "know" HP, it could be you who is deceived?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Matt Black]

I think the point to be made, Steaver, is that you must allow other BBmembers the liberty to disagree with your interpretations of Scripture without accusing them of being 'deaf' or 'stiff-necked' or whatever other perjorative term you want to use which casts more than a smidgeon of doubt on their salvation. They are not 'deaf'; they just think you're wrong. You likewise think that they are wrong - does that make you 'deaf' or 'shaking your fist at God'?

 

[steaver]

I think the point to be made, Steaver, is that you must allow other BBmembers the liberty to disagree with your interpretations of Scripture without accusing them of being 'deaf' or 'stiff-necked' or whatever other perjorative term you want to use which casts more than a smidgeon of doubt on their salvation. They are not 'deaf'; they just think you're wrong. You likewise think that they are wrong - does that make you 'deaf' or 'shaking your fist at God'?

Actually, I being on the OSAS side of this, go to great pains to teach those who have been born of God that their salvation is a done deal.

Those like HP are unsure if they will make it pass the "final" judgment, as they put it, so they don't have a perfect assurance of their salvation. This is sad because God wants them to know they are saved by His grace and nothing they can do will change this.

Their "hope" is in that they will make it. My "hope" is in Christ alone and I already "know" (ginosko...a prol. form of a primary verb: to "know" (absolutely) in a great variety of applications and with many impl. ) that I will make it because of Christ's work.

I get this all the time with "well that is your interpretation". You can call it "interpreting" i guess but it is really "dividing the word of truth". All of the "dividing" that I do i do it with scripture and word definitions. Specific words that are used in scripture have specific definitions. God does not tell us to interpret the scriptures really. He tells us to "rightly divide" the word of truth. Interpreting usually means to each his own, however each sees fit, thus you get the "well that is your interpretation". Scripture is what it is and one must let the scriptures interpret themselves.

You will take notice that those who believe you can lose your salvation will most always post one liners of scripture and say see there? ANd then I will have to go to the verse, read the entire passage to grasp the context, refer to word definitions from my Strong's concordance, refer to other scriptures that are crystal clear, take in the full counsel of God's word, making sure there is no contradictions in the conclusion and then come back and explain why they have incorrectly interpreted the "verse" (if they have). Usually they have injected their own interpretations rather than allowing God's word to interpret itself.

On occassion I will learn I was the one wrongly dividing (this many times in the past while searching and learning) and either abandon that verse as a support verse or change my view depending on the topic. But after ten years of debate and study many of my positions have been cemented, although I am always checking and rechecking as debates go that I may learn and be sure I have not mishandled God's precious word.

There are passages that some here are using as support passages for their views that I have throroughly "rightly divided" for them and they just simply go on using them. Now that is "stiff necked". They had no reason to continue to use them but they just totally ignored, not an interpretation, but rather blatant facts.

As far as the "shaking your fist at the grace of God" comment, that indeed is my opinion of how I see the "work your way to heaven" position.


God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Matt Black]

Thanks for that. I'm not sure though that you or I are any more qualified than HP as individuals to 'rightly divide the word of truth'. On what basis do you claim superior authority in that regard to HP?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Thanks for that. I'm not sure though that you or I are any more qualified than HP as individuals to 'rightly divide the word of truth'. On what basis do you claim superior authority in that regard to HP?

Sola Scriptura = I'm my own little infalliable pope...

Christ is Risen
-

 

[Matt Black]

'Zackly!:thumbs:

 

[trustitl]

Actually, I being on the OSAS side of this, go to great pains to teach those who have been born of God that their salvation is a done deal.

I do not believe in unconditional eternal security. But, I believe my salvation is a done deal because I am a believer. I don't know what is any more safe than that.

Those like HP are unsure if they will make it pass the "final" judgment, as they put it, so they don't have a perfect assurance of their salvation. This is sad because God wants them to know they are saved by His grace and nothing they can do will change this.

Like, I said above, I have full assurance of my salvation. My experience is that many people that are taught the unconditional eternal security doctrine struggle with knowing they are saved because they also believe in unconditional election. This teaching has in the fine print that people can be conviced in their own mind that they are saved but still be reprobate because they were not infused with the irresistble, saving grace of God. They fear they may have merely made a mental assent of believing that does not save.

Their "hope" is in that they will make it. My "hope" is in Christ alone and I already "know" (ginosko...a prol. form of a primary verb: to "know" (absolutely) in a great variety of applications and with many impl. ) that I will make it because of Christ's work.

That is my hope as well.

You will take notice that those who believe you can lose your salvation will most always post one liners of scripture and say see there? ANd then I will have to go to the verse, read the entire passage to grasp the context, refer to word definitions from my Strong's concordance, refer to other scriptures that are crystal clear, take in the full counsel of God's word, making sure there is no contradictions in the conclusion and then come back and explain why they have incorrectly interpreted the "verse" (if they have). Usually they have injected their own interpretations rather than allowing God's word to interpret itself.

Here again, I find the unconditional eternal security side to do more of this than the other side as you say. However, how people try to defend their position is of little importance to me.

As far as the "shaking your fist at the grace of God" comment, that indeed is my opinion of how I see the "work your way to heaven" position.

Here again is the fallacy that those that do not teach unconditional eternal security believe in works. It is far from the truth that I believe. I am saved by grace through faith, not of works. Also, I am kept by the power of God through faith.
You have merely falsly understood faith to be a work. To me faith is the ultimate non-work.

God bless :thumbs: .

Jim