Are You Saving Yourself?

[Matt Black]

So what is 'faith', then? A mere abstraction? Responding to an altar call once (or more than once even) in your dim and distant past? Praying the 'Sinner's Prayer' once upon a time (and then very possibly carrying on with the hookers, drugs and the getting drunk)? Intellectual assent? Inviting Jesus into your life (whatever that means...)? Having Jesus as your 'personal Saviour' (what the heck does that mean; as opposed to an 'impersonal Saviour'; do you keep Him in your pocket and carry Him round with you?)? Just sitting back and letting go and letting God do it all for you? Or something more?

Enquiring minds wish to know...

 

[Doubting Thomas]

So what is 'faith', then? A mere abstraction? Responding to an altar call once (or more than once even) in your dim and distant past? Praying the 'Sinner's Prayer' once upon a time (and then very possibly carrying on with the hookers, drugs and the getting drunk)? Intellectual assent? Inviting Jesus into your life (whatever that means...)? Having Jesus as your 'personal Saviour' (what the heck does that mean; as opposed to an 'impersonal Saviour'; do you keep Him in your pocket and carry Him round with you?)? Just sitting back and letting go and letting God do it all for you? Or something more?

Enquiring minds wish to know...

Matt, good questions all.

 

[nunatak]

So what is 'faith', then? A mere abstraction? Responding to an altar call once (or more than once even) in your dim and distant past? Praying the 'Sinner's Prayer' once upon a time (and then very possibly carrying on with the hookers, drugs and the getting drunk)? Intellectual assent? Inviting Jesus into your life (whatever that means...)? Having Jesus as your 'personal Saviour' (what the heck does that mean; as opposed to an 'impersonal Saviour'; do you keep Him in your pocket and carry Him round with you?)? Just sitting back and letting go and letting God do it all for you? Or something more?

Enquiring minds wish to know...

I think that is a good question as well, even though one put forward sarcastically.
Now, I THINK, that faith is trust in the Christ, Jesus, and in his finished work on the cross, in that he bore the wrath of God, that is, the penalty for my sins. I think that by this faith, or trust, in Christ, I receive, on credit, the gracious gift of righteousness. I also think that faith is my response to this Gospel, that Christ died, and rose again, according to the scriptures, indeed my "work of faith." And yes, I think that I learn that which I just wrote by scripture alone.

 

[DHK]

So what is 'faith', then? A mere abstraction? Responding to an altar call once (or more than once even) in your dim and distant past? Praying the 'Sinner's Prayer' once upon a time (and then very possibly carrying on with the hookers, drugs and the getting drunk)? Intellectual assent? Inviting Jesus into your life (whatever that means...)? Having Jesus as your 'personal Saviour' (what the heck does that mean; as opposed to an 'impersonal Saviour'; do you keep Him in your pocket and carry Him round with you?)? Just sitting back and letting go and letting God do it all for you? Or something more?

Enquiring minds wish to know...

The answer to all of your above questions is "no."

Faith is confidence in the word of another. Some will define it as trust.

You exercise faith every day, as does every person. When I put my key into the ignition of my car and turn it, I have faith that my car will start. I am confident (have faith) that it will. That confidence (faith) is based on the word of the Ford Motor Company who wrote the manual that said if I do that, then my car will start. It is based on Ford's word.
My confidence is also based on experience. The more I know my car, and it starts regularly, the more confident (have faith), that it should start the next time.
Now some day it won't start. That does mean that my faith has failed. No. It means that man, who is fallible, has made an imperfect car, which is not perfect and will occasionally break down. Man cannot make anything that is absolutely perfect because he is not perfect.

However we serve a perfect God, whose promises are perfect. I can have perfect faith in his promises (His Word) that he will always accomplish that which he has promised in His Word. Though man may lie; God will never lie. He is immutable and never changes.
The more I get to know God, the more confident I become that God will never fail me. I get to know God in prayer and in my own devotions--allowing him to speak to me through His Word. I have a personal relationship with Him. This is far more than intellectual assent. I know Him. I have a relationship with.

I know my wife, and have a relationship with her. The longer I spend time with her the more confidence (faith) I am able to put in her.
I know my Lord, and have a relationship with Him. The longer I spend time with him the more confidence (faith) I am able to put in Him.

 

[steaver]

Thanks for that. I'm not sure though that you or I are any more qualified than HP as individuals to 'rightly divide the word of truth'. On what basis do you claim superior authority in that regard to HP?

I didn't claim superior authority. There will always be this struggle between doctrines and views until the Lord Himself judges us (1Cor 3:15). My goal is to be found approved unto God, a worker that needeth not to be ashamed (2 Tim 2:15) at my judgment. I study and pray to understand the truth and teach the truth for the sake of truth. I have nothing to gain in this life and do not long for any "I told you so's". I just want the wonderful grace of God and Jesus Christ's work alone to be exalted and I this lowly worm to be forever humbly grateful. I want every good work or righteous work that I may have ever done to be as dung compared to the free gift of God in Christ Jesus.

if there is any good works in me it is only because Christ lives in me. I was created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Eph 2:10). To Him be the glory! As many great preachers have said, "hide me behind the cross Lord Jesus". I want them to see only You Jesus and Your grace and Your work.

It is so simple and clear; By grace ye have been saved through faith and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8-9).

God Bless! :jesus:

 

[Amy.G]

The answer to all of your above questions is "no."

Faith is confidence in the word of another. Some will define it as trust.

You exercise faith every day, as does every person. When I put my key into the ignition of my car and turn it, I have faith that my car will start. I am confident (have faith) that it will. That confidence (faith) is based on the word of the Ford Motor Company who wrote the manual that said if I do that, then my car will start. It is based on Ford's word.
My confidence is also based on experience. The more I know my car, and it starts regularly, the more confident (have faith), that it should start the next time.
Now some day it won't start. That does mean that my faith has failed. No. It means that man, who is fallible, has made an imperfect car, which is not perfect and will occasionally break down. Man cannot make anything that is absolutely perfect because he is not perfect.

However we serve a perfect God, whose promises are perfect. I can have perfect faith in his promises (His Word) that he will always accomplish that which he has promised in His Word. Though man may lie; God will never lie. He is immutable and never changes.
The more I get to know God, the more confident I become that God will never fail me. I get to know God in prayer and in my own devotions--allowing him to speak to me through His Word. I have a personal relationship with Him. This is far more than intellectual assent. I know Him. I have a relationship with.

I know my wife, and have a relationship with her. The longer I spend time with her the more confidence (faith) I am able to put in her.
I know my Lord, and have a relationship with Him. The longer I spend time with him the more confidence (faith) I am able to put in Him.

That is a wonderful definition of faith! :godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I know my Lord, and have a relationship with Him. The longer I spend time with him the more confidence (faith) I am able to put in Him.

HP: This is an interesting statement. If one knows immutably the outcome ‘by faith’ and that outcome is written in stone eternally with no possibility of change, how can one even suggest that faith or confidence could grow or increase? Forgive me but I sense there is something indeed wrong and inconsistent with such a concept denoted as ‘faith’.

How can faith, in the immutable and eternal sense that DHK places upon it, be in any way compared to faith in a marriage or in an automobile? It appears to me like he has absolute knowledge and faith set forth as ‘one concept’ on one hand, and then denies it in his illustration on the other. In doing so he misses the mark on all accounts.

 

[DHK]

HP: This is an interesting statement. If one knows immutably the outcome ‘by faith’ and that outcome is written in stone eternally with no possibility of change, how can one even suggest that faith or confidence could grow or increase? Forgive me but I sense there is something indeed wrong and inconsistent with such a concept denoted as ‘faith’.

How can faith, in the immutable and eternal sense that DHK places upon it, be in any way compared to faith in a marriage or in an automobile? It appears to me like he has absolute knowledge and faith set forth as ‘one concept’ on one hand, and then denies it in his illustration on the other. In doing so he misses the mark on all accounts.

God is immutable. He never changes. He is the one constant in a believer's life. He is the object of my faith. Faith always has an object. What is the object of your faith.

As an aside the object of my faith when I start my car is:
1. The word of the Ford Motor Company that built the car (i.e. the manual),
and it is strengthened by my experience (i.e. relationship) with my own vehicle).

The Bible says: "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."
Faith grows or changes in direct proportion to the amount of the Word that I have read or heard. God never changes, but my faith (confidence) in God will change (for the better) as I listen and study (hear) God's Word.

 

[Matt Black]

What I am getting from both DHK's and Nunatak's definitions is that faith is or involves action. This is of course is eminently Scriptural - James 2:14-26 springs to mind - but it flatly contradicts the earlier assertion that faith isn't a work. At the very least, it involves and requires work.

 

[DHK]

What I am getting from both DHK's and Nunatak's definitions is that faith is or involves action. This is of course is eminently Scriptural - James 2:14-26 springs to mind - but it flatly contradicts the earlier assertion that faith isn't a work. At the very least, it involves and requires work.

In its simplest form faith is trust. Do you trust your parents? Did you trust them as a very small child? Was it work when you trusted them?

 

[steaver]

What do you say about this discovery I presented a few post back.....



Quote:

HP: I would see this as a misunderstanding of the nature of faith. It is impossible to hold something by faith yet at the same time know somthing by absolute knoiwledge. Either we have faith or we know something absolutely, but never the twain shall meet.




Quote:

Steaver: According to God's word you are very mistaken.

There is a greek word which is used when expressing "absolute" knowledge of something. It is "ginosko". You will find this in Strong's Concordance under number 1097. Strong's defines this word as follows....a prol. form of a primary verb: to "know" (absolutely) in a great variety of applications and with many impl.

Now that you ginosko that ginosko means absolute knowledge you can check out which verses uses this absolute knowledge verb.

Here is just a sample;

Jhn 10:14I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.



Both "know" and "known" in this verse is from the greek word "ginosko" meaning "absolute" knowledge. Does Jesus know with absolute knowledge who His sheep are? Of course He does and you would not argue He is not quite sure. And just the same, Jesus' sheep know with an absolute knowledge who He is intimately. The scripture declares this so with the word "ginosko".

So yes I have faith in Christ, that all that is written of Him is true and He is able to save me to the uttermost. I live by faith because He is yet unseen of me by my own eyes, however I know with absolute knowledge that He is because of the Spirit He gave me at regeneration.

So faith and absolute knowledge most certainly do coexist within all born again believers. If one does not have this knowledge of Christ living in them then they should as Paul said, examine themselves (2Cor 13).

Since you have no absolute knowledge of Christ HP, how can you come to this board and attempt to persuade others that your view is correct? For all you "know" HP, it could be you who is deceived?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Matt Black]

In its simplest form faith is trust. Do you trust your parents? Did you trust them as a very small child? Was it work when you trusted them?

From when I can remember, I had to think about it so, yes; it didn't just 'happen'

 

[trustitl]

HP: This is an interesting statement. If one knows immutably the outcome ‘by faith’ and that outcome is written in stone eternally with no possibility of change, how can one even suggest that faith or confidence could grow or increase? Forgive me but I sense there is something indeed wrong and inconsistent with such a concept denoted as ‘faith’.

How can faith, in the immutable and eternal sense that DHK places upon it, be in any way compared to faith in a marriage or in an automobile? It appears to me like he has absolute knowledge and faith set forth as ‘one concept’ on one hand, and then denies it in his illustration on the other. In doing so he misses the mark on all accounts.

When I get a chance to agree with someone that I often disagree with I feel like I had better jump on it. :thumbs:

I fully understand what DHK is saying. When I look back at the faith I had in God as a new believer over 20 years ago compared to today I am encouraged to see that my faith has grown. The analogy to a marriage is a good one in my opinion. I knew my wife when I married her almost 20 years ago however, I know her in a way that is far deeper than when we were young lovers. With that knowledge I am better able to both trust and love her. I think this is what God desires to do with us. He could very well beam us up to heaven when we are born again, but he desires to see our faith, more precious than gold, be refined. This is why we count our trials as joyful: they are perfecting us.

It may be better to compare it to my children's relationship with me. Their ability to trust me as a two year old was very different than as a 14 year old. On one level, the faith of two year old seems stronger because they have little else to trust due to a lack of life experience. A young childs faith is so pure, but in a good relationship that faith will grow. My children have proved me "o’er and o’er": how much more our father who is in heaven.

’Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus,
And to take Him at His Word;
Just to rest upon His promise,
And to know, “Thus says the Lord!”

Refrain

Jesus, Jesus, how I trust Him!
How I’ve proved Him o’er and o’er
Jesus, Jesus, precious Jesus!
O for grace to trust Him more!

O how sweet to trust in Jesus,
Just to trust His cleansing blood;
And in simple faith to plunge me
’Neath the healing, cleansing flood!

Refrain

Yes, ’tis sweet to trust in Jesus,
Just from sin and self to cease;
Just from Jesus simply taking
Life and rest, and joy and peace.

Refrain

I’m so glad I learned to trust Thee,
Precious Jesus, Savior, Friend;
And I know that Thou art with me,
Wilt be with me to the end.

Refrain

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/t/i/tissweet.htm

 

[steaver]

’Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus,
And to take Him at His Word;
Just to rest upon His promise,
And to know, “Thus says the Lord!”

Refrain

Jesus, Jesus, how I trust Him!
How I’ve proved Him o’er and o’er
Jesus, Jesus, precious Jesus!
O for grace to trust Him more!

O how sweet to trust in Jesus,
Just to trust His cleansing blood;
And in simple faith to plunge me
’Neath the healing, cleansing flood!

Refrain

Yes, ’tis sweet to trust in Jesus,
Just from sin and self to cease;
Just from Jesus simply taking
Life and rest, and joy and peace.

Refrain

I’m so glad I learned to trust Thee,
Precious Jesus, Savior, Friend;
And I know that Thou art with me,
Wilt be with me to the end.

I was leafing through the hymn book last Sunday to see if I could find a song that gave the Christian some credit for their salvation. I couldn't find any. I still wonder how these folks worship in song when all the songs give Jesus ALL the credit.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

From when I can remember, I had to think about it so, yes; it didn't just 'happen'

By your own admission then, faith cannot be a work. It is trust, confidence put in another person. That is not a work.

 

[EdSutton]

Am I saving myself?

I'm certainly intending to! And others as well.

13 Till I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership. 15 Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all. 16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. (I Tim. 4:13-16 - NKJV)

22 to the weak I became as[c] weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you. (I Cor. 9:22-23 - NKJV)

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul[a] from death and cover a multitude of sins. (Jas. 5:19-20 - NKJV)

20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[a] 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[b] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh. (Jude 20-24 - NKJV)

Ed

 

[Matt Black]

By your own admission then, faith cannot be a work. It is trust, confidence put in another person. That is not a work.

In what way is it not a work? I think we need to clarify our definitions a bit more...

 

[steaver]

In what way is it not a work? I think we need to clarify our definitions a bit more...

How about God's word defining it for us?

"By grace ye have been saved through faith and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8-9)

Now once ye have been born of God, you have been regenerated, you have been created a new creature and part of this new creature is the indwellment of the Holy Spirit. Your spirit has become one with the Spirit of Christ. Faith (as far as salvation goes) is part of your regeneration. Once born of God you now "know" (ginosko [Gk] ) Jesus is God. You could never believe anything less.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: I was leafing through the hymn book last Sunday to see if I could find a song that gave the Christian some credit for their salvation. I couldn't find any. I still wonder how these folks worship in song when all the songs give Jesus ALL the credit.

HP: This sort of mischaracterization of the views of those that would take a stand against OSAS is too often the case. It is a nothing but a revival of the attitude of their father Augustine, who took the position that if you did not view grace from his presupposition of original sin that you deny grace. Nothing could have been, or is today, further from the truth. It is the mischaracterization that if you believe that God has set forth conditions for man to fulfill and that God commands man to do something in order to entertain a sure hope of eternal life that somehow that denies God the glory and credit for our salvation. Again, that is a false notion without the least truth or merit.

The problem those that make such comments, as Augustine did and Steaver and others do yet today, is that they willingly refuse to acknowledge the truth concerning the distinction between the grounds of salvation and the conditions of salvation. They find a proof text that speaks of the grounds of salvation, the true source of making salvation possible, and try and wield such proof texts to destroy the conditions of salvation Scripture very carefully points out that man must fulfill in order to enter into a hope of eternal life when neither the text itself nor the author of the text had any such intentions stated or implied.

In the prison illustration I have given it presents the truth of this clear distinction. A pardon cannot be earned in any way, i.e., no amount of good any prisoner can or will do can in any way force the governor to pardon the criminal. It can be said the grounds of any pardon lies in the grace of the governor and not in any meritorious works by any prisoner. It can be rightfully said that a pardon is not of works that any should boast, nor are there any actions that can or will be performed on the part of the prisoner that in any way can be rightfully said are meritorious in that they forced the governor to pardon the criminal or in any way can be thought of as the grounds of their pardon if in fact they receive one. Just the same, it can rightfully be stated that there are some things a prisoner must do in order to receive a pardon from any fair and just governor that loves his subjects.

What kind of a governor would turn back into society a criminal that had no change of heart, attitude, and actions concerning their former acts of crime upon society? He certainly would not be a fair one for certain, nor could it be said that he had honest concern for the well being of the populace if he were to pardon a prisoner that had no evinced a clear change of heart concerning his former crimes and had exhibited an attitude of change of behavior.

I should be clear to the seeker of truth that the grounds of a pardon is none other than the grace of the governor alone, yet just the same, the will of the prisoner is indeed involved, NOT meritoriously in any sense in which the intents formed by the prisoner 'merits' a pardon, but in the sense of ‘not without which.’ The prisoner was not pardoned for the sake of his works, neither could he work his way out of prison. Just the same, there are certain attitudes and responses that the prisoner must exemplify that ‘without which’ he will in no wise receive a pardon.

Because the will of the prisoner must be involved actively in the process of the receiving a pardon, and one admits to that fact freely, does that necessitate that such a one believes the prisoner merits a pardon or receives a pardon by works that they have done? I think not, neither does reason necessitate any such conclusions as Steaver and others on this list have insinuated by their remarks that if the will of man is of necessity involved in salvation that such a one by necessity denies grace or that such a one believes that salvation is being presented as being achieved by merit on the part of the sinner. That is an absolutely false conclusion without any merit whatsoever. It is a false and unjust charge that is throw at an opponent to somehow make it appear as if though one has the high ground in the debate when in reality such is simply not the case.

 

[steaver]

HP: It is the mischaracterization that if you believe that God has set forth conditions for man to fulfill and that God commands man to do something in order to entertain a sure hope of eternal life that somehow that denies God the glory and credit for our salvation. Again, that is a false notion without the least truth or merit.

Actually, I agree with your statement here. There are instructions given in God's word instructing man to do something in order for the believer to entertain a sure hope of eternal life.

I would not agree if you said, "God commands man to do something good in order to gain eternal life. We do, however, make our election and calling sure by living our lives in submission to God's ways.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Key word is "sure". It does not say to make your calling and election(period). But rather to make your calling and election (it is declaring you already have a calling and election) "sure". And "if ye do these things, ye shall never fall". It does not say if ye do these things you shall be saved.
Not at all, By grace ye have been saved through faith and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

HP: The problem those that make such comments, as Augustine did and Steaver and others do yet today, is that they willingly refuse to acknowledge the truth concerning the distinction between the grounds of salvation and the conditions of salvation. They find a proof text that speaks of the grounds of salvation, the true source of making salvation possible, and try and wield such proof texts to destroy the conditions of salvation Scripture very carefully points out that man must fulfill in order to enter into a hope of eternal life when neither the text itself nor the author of the text had any such intentions stated or implied.

I don't think this is true. I fully understand the "condition" of salvation and find this "condition" throughout the scriptures. Here is one example....Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

HP: In the prison illustration I have given it presents the truth of this clear distinction. A pardon cannot be earned in any way, i.e., no amount of good any prisoner can or will do can in any way force the governor to pardon the criminal. It can be said the grounds of any pardon lies in the grace of the governor and not in any meritorious works by any prisoner. It can be rightfully said that a pardon is not of works that any should boast, nor are there any actions that can or will be performed on the part of the prisoner that in any way can be rightfully said are meritorious in that they forced the governor to pardon the criminal or in any way can be thought of as the grounds of their pardon if in fact they receive one. Just the same, it can rightfully be stated that there are some things a prisoner must do in order to receive a pardon from any fair and just governor that loves his subjects.

Your "prison illustration" fails. God does not look for do gooders to grant grace towards. God looks for the sinner crying out for God to save him from his wretched life. God looks for "belief".

Luk 18:11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

Luk 18:12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Luk 18:13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Luk 18:14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

God then performs a miracle called regeneration (born-again). This frees the sinner from the curse of the law and places him into God's family as a child FOREVER. From here the child will grow into maturity in Christ. This is guaranteed by God Himself.

Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

1Th 5:23¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 5:24Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].

HP: What kind of a governor would turn back into society a criminal that had no change of heart, attitude, and actions concerning their former acts of crime upon society?

Exactly. This is why God regenerates the sinner giving him a new heart that rejects sin and loves thy neighbour.

HP: I should be clear to the seeker of truth that the grounds of a pardon is none other than the grace of the governor alone, yet just the same, the will of the prisoner is indeed involved, NOT meritoriously in any sense in which the intents formed by the prisoner 'merits' a pardon, but in the sense of ‘not without which.’

Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

HP: The prisoner was not pardoned for the sake of his works, neither could he work his way out of prison. Just the same, there are certain attitudes and responses that the prisoner must exemplify that ‘without which’ he will in no wise receive a pardon.

Just one...."God be merciful to me a sinner".

God Bless! :thumbs: