Arguments for a Post Trib. Rap.

[stilllearning]

Hello Everyone

I believe the Bible clearly teaches a Pre-Tribulation Rapture;
But having not come out of “any camp”, I am free to change my mind.

Please refresh my memory; Why should anyone, support a Post Tribulation Rapture?

 

[OldRegular]

Hello Everyone

I believe the Bible clearly teaches a Pre-Tribulation Rapture;
But having not come out of “any camp”, I am free to change my mind.

Please refresh my memory; Why should anyone, support a Post Tribulation Rapture?

Perhaps you should start by defending, using Scripture, the so-called pre-trib rapture.

 

[stilllearning]

OK, I will.

Assuming that a person already believes in a Rapture and a Tribulation period, I will go from there.

One point, that I could start off with, is the question:
“If you believe that the Church will be going through the Tribulation period, than what will be it’s purpose?”
----------------------------------
During the first half of Tribulation, there will be those 2 witness, preaching the Gospel, across the globe:
(If the Church is still here, how do we fit in?)

And during the second half of the Tribulation, there will be 144.000 Jews, evangelizing the world:
(How will the Church be involved with that?)



I look forward to your answers.

 

[preachinjesus]

As a historical premillenialist I only believe in one second Coming.

I don't see the dispensational, pre-tribulational view through my study of Scripture.

Since this is a (supposed) heretical view for some around here I'll simply state my beliefs above and step away.

 

[OldRegular]

OK, I will.

Assuming that a person already believes in a Rapture and a Tribulation period, I will go from there.

One point, that I could start off with, is the question:
“If you believe that the Church will be going through the Tribulation period, than what will be it’s purpose?”
----------------------------------
During the first half of Tribulation, there will be those 2 witness, preaching the Gospel, across the globe:
(If the Church is still here, how do we fit in?)

And during the second half of the Tribulation, there will be 144.000 Jews, evangelizing the world:
(How will the Church be involved with that?)



I look forward to your answers.

Your above statements are pure supposition from a highly symbolic book.

1. Just where does it say that the two witnesses will preach the Gospel.

2. Assuming you were correct isn't it true that anyone who responds to the effectual call of the Gospel is a part of the Church.

3. Just where does it say that 144,000 Jews will evangelize the world?

4. Assuming you are correct to what are they going to evangelize the world?

5. Furthermore, just where does it mention 144,000 and Jews in the same context?

 

[Brandon C. Jones]

Millard Erickson defends the post-tribulational view in his book, Christian Theology. Douglas Moo defends it in his contribution to Three Views on the Rapture. I would recommend the latter book because it's cheaper and it gives each viewpoint from one who defends that view followed by brief critiques from the other contributors. Here's a link to the Google books preview of it here.

Blessings in your studies,
Brandon

 

[stilllearning]

Hello OldRegular

I suppose the “it”, you keep referring to, is the Bible.
--------------------------------------------------
You asked........

“1. Just where does it say that the two witnesses will preach the Gospel.”

Revelation 11:3
“And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.”

--------------------------------------------------
You asked......

“2. Assuming you were correct isn't it true that anyone who responds to the effectual call of the Gospel is a part of the Church.”

Good question: I will answer it with another question.......
Was John the Baptist, “a part of the Church?”
--------------------------------------------------
You asked.........

“3. Just where does it say that 144,000 Jews will evangelize the world?”

Revelation 7:3-4
V.3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
V.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
--------------------------------------------------
You asked.......

“4. Assuming you are correct to what are they going to evangelize the world?”

Undoubtedly there is a mistake in this question:

You could have meant.......
why are they going to evangelize the world?”
where are they going to evangelize the world?”
when are they going to evangelize the world?”
------------------------
My guess is........
“when are they going to evangelize the world?”

Another good question:
When the two witnesses, finish there ministry, there are in Jerusalem, and when they are taken to heaven, there will be a great earthquake, and the LORD will open the eyes of the Jews, and they will get saved......
Revelation 11:13
“And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.”

So the “when”, is after the two witnesses are finished.
------------------------
Or maybe you did mean........

“what are they going to evangelize the world?”

The gentiles on the earth, that had not rejected the Gospel before the rapture.....
2Thessalonians 2:11
“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:”

--------------------------------------------------
You asked.........

“5. Furthermore, just where does it mention 144,000 and Jews in the same context?”

In the same context as what?

Once again I assume, your talking about the context of the ministry of the two witnesses.

In Revelation 7:3, the Bible calls them, “the servants of our God”;
Therefore, the context is clear.
--------------------------------------------------
Also, you started your response with this statement.......

“Your above statements are pure supposition from a highly symbolic book.”

It is true, the book of Revelation, does contain a lot of symbolism;
But that is no excuse, to write the whole book off.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi Brandon C. Jones

Thank you for the information.

 

[canadyjd]

Hello Everyone

I believe the Bible clearly teaches a Pre-Tribulation Rapture;
But having not come out of “any camp”, I am free to change my mind.

Please refresh my memory; Why should anyone, support a Post Tribulation Rapture?

Because Jesus said in Matt. 24:29

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkeded, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, (30) and then the sign of the son of Man will appear in the sky, and the all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory."

(emphasis mine)

Seems pretty clear to me. Jesus says after the tribulation, He will return.

peace to youraying:

 

[BaptistBob]

Millard Erickson defends the post-tribulational view in his book, Christian Theology. Douglas Moo defends it in his contribution to Three Views on the Rapture. I would recommend the latter book because it's cheaper and it gives each viewpoint from one who defends that view followed by brief critiques from the other contributors. Here's a link to the Google books preview of it here.

Blessings in your studies,
Brandon

:thumbs:................

 

[Revmitchell]

Because Jesus said in Matt. 24:29

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkeded, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, (30) and then the sign of the son of Man will appear in the sky, and the all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory."

(emphasis mine)

Seems pretty clear to me. Jesus says after the tribulation, He will return.

peace to youraying:

There is a difference between rapture and return.

 

[Tom Butler]

Let's talk about the two witnesses in Rev. 11.

Are they two real people or are they symbolic?

I find it interesting that Rev. 11:4 describes them as the two olive trees and the two candlesticks. This suggest that they may symbolize something else.

If so, what? Rev 1:20 completes a section dealing with the seven stars and the seven candlesticks. Jesus tells John that the seven candlesticks are the seven churches.

Candlesticks=churches. In Ch 11 John talks of two candlesticks. Two churches, maybe? I don't know, but the same writer of chapters 1 and 11, equates candlesticks with churches. Hmmm, candlesticks during the tribulation.

Now, the witnesses are also described as olive trees. What they represent is less clear. In several OT locations the olive trees, or olive branches are equated with Israel.

Others say the olive trees produce olive oil, used as a fuel in lamps, so the olive trees and the lambstands (candlesticks) are closely related.

But the main point is, that the witnesses (candlesticks--churches) are there on earth 42 months into the tribulation.

 

[OldRegular]

Hello OldRegular I suppose the “it”, you keep referring to, is the Bible. --------------------------------------------------
You asked

By OldRegular
“1. Just where does it say that the two witnesses will preach the Gospel.”

Revelation 11:3 “And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Nothing is said about preaching the Gospel

You asked

By OldRegular
“2. Assuming you were correct isn't it true that anyone who responds to the effectual call of the Gospel is a part of the Church.”

Good question: I will answer it with another question....... Was John the Baptist, “a part of the Church?”

All true believers are a part of the Church. That is Southern Baptist Doctrine.

You asked

By OldRegular
“3. Just where does it say that 144,000 Jews will evangelize the world?”

Revelation 7:3-4
V.3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
V.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

I don’t see anything about evangelize or Jew in the above passage. The word Jew normally refers to those from the Southern Kingdom who returned from captivity in Babylon.

You asked

By OldRegular
“4. Assuming you are correct to what are they going to evangelize the world?”

Undoubtedly there is a mistake in this question:

There is no mistake in the question!

You could have meant.......
why are they going to evangelize the world?”
where are they going to evangelize the world?”
when are they going to evangelize the world?” ------------------------
My guess is........
“when are they going to evangelize the world?”
Another good question:
When the two witnesses, finish there ministry, there are in Jerusalem, and when they are taken to heaven, there will be a great earthquake, and the LORD will open the eyes of the Jews, and they will get saved......
Revelation 11:13 “And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.”

The Scripture says they gave glory to God. It does not say they get saved. Saved from what, Saved to what.

So the “when”, is after the two witnesses are finished. ------------------------
Or maybe you did mean........

By OldRegular
“to what are they going to evangelize the world?”

The gentiles on the earth, that had not rejected the Gospel before the rapture.....
2Thessalonians 2:11 “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:”

According to your doctrine those who had not rejected the Gospel prior to the so-called rapture would no longer be on earth. They were a part of the Church and were taken out.

You asked.........

By OldRegular
“5. Furthermore, just where does it mention 144,000 and Jews in the same context?”

In the same context as what?
Once again I assume, your talking about the context of the ministry of the two witnesses.
In Revelation 7:3, the Bible calls them, “the servants of our God”;
Therefore, the context is clear.

The word Jew is not mentioned after Revelation 3:9. You are assuming the 144,000 are Jews!

Also, you started your response with this statement.

By OldRegular
“Your above statements are pure supposition from a highly symbolic book.”

It is true, the book of Revelation, does contain a lot of symbolism; But that is no excuse, to write the whole book off.

I would never write anything in Scripture off. However, neither would I study the Book of Revelation with only a dispensational interpretation in hand. If you really are interested in studing the Book of Revelation you might use the book Revelation, Four Views by Steve Gregg but only after you had spent a long time studying it without the dispensational bias you have.

 

[TCGreek]

As a historical premillenialist I only believe in one second Coming.

I don't see the dispensational, pre-tribulational view through my study of Scripture.

Since this is a (supposed) heretical view for some around here I'll simply state my beliefs above and step away.

Nice camp to be in. :thumbs:

 

[stilllearning]

Hello again OldRegular

You said, about Revelation 11:3......

“Nothing is said about preaching the Gospel”

They will prophesy, in the same way that Noah did.
(“God’s Judgement is coming, so repent and trust Christ!”)
--------------------------------------------------
And when talking about, John the Baptist, you said.......

“All true believers are a part of the Church. That is Southern Baptist Doctrine.”

That may be the case: But John the Baptist, was a true believer who wasn’t a part of the Church.

This brings us the subject of Dispensationalism, which lies at the heart of our disagreement.
------------------------
My acceptance of Dispensationalism has NOTHING to do with what any man has taught me. It has to do with the clues that I find in the Bible, about it.

E.G. Speaking of John the Baptist, Jesus said........
Luke 7:28
“For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

I remember the day, that I got stuck on this verse, and asked the LORD, “what bad thing did John do, to be called least, in the kingdom of God”

And the answer is, John didn’t do anything wrong; He was just in a different dispensation:
(Of course, I didn’t know, that they were called dispensations, back then, but none the less, John was not a member of the Church.)
------------------------
There are many such “clues” in the Bible, that reveal the different dispensations, and therefore when you asked me to........Cast aside my “dispensational bias”, I hope that you can understand, why I can’t.

I would have to be removing parts of Scripture.
--------------------------------------------------
Next, when talking about Revelation 7:3-4, you said........

“I don’t see anything about evangelize or Jew in the above passage.”

Well, verse 4 says........
“all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

And I thought that you would keep reading verses 5-8

Oh by the way, the JW’s don’t see the Jews in this passage either.
--------------------------------------------------
Next, about Revelation 11:13, you said........

“The Scripture says they gave glory to God. It does not say they get saved.”

Well, they “had been” rejecting the LORD, but now they are giving Him glory, and are being sealed by Him.
(And even though, they do not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, they do become believers.)

And you said......
“Saved from what, Saved to what.”

Saved from God’s wrath, and brought under God’s protection.
--------------------------------------------------
Your next question is “most interesting”:

In response to what 2Thessalonians 2:11 says, you asked.......

“According to your doctrine those who had not rejected the Gospel prior to the so-called rapture would no longer be on earth. They were a part of the Church and were taken out.”

This is interesting, because if you’re a Calvinist, you won’t be able to get your head around it.

2Thessalonians 2:10-12 says.......
V.10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
V.11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
V.12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is talking about all those people, who hear the Gospel today, and reject it:
And then when the Rapture comes tomorrow, they will miss it, and will not be allowed to trust Christ during the tribulation, but will be sent a strong delusion, to believe the lies of the anti-Christ.

Now this in itself, leaves open the fact, that there will be some people today, who have never heard the Gospel, and who have never been given the opportunity to get saved before the rapture.
(These people, will be given a chance at “salvation”, during the tribulation, although they will have missed out on their opportunity, to be part of the Church.)
--------------------------------------------------
Now, a Calvinist would say, these people never heard the Gospel because they were not elected to; And I would agree.
But all this means, is that they were not elected to be part of the Church; But they can still find “salvation” in Christ.

Now I know the Bible says......
John 3:18
“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

Everyone is born “condemned”, and all those who die, without receiving Christ, will spend an eternity, in the lake of fire.

Now, those who receive Christ before the Rapture, will be saved and become part of the Church;
But all those who receive Christ, before or after the Church age, will also be saved, but miss out on the great pleasure, of being part of the Bride of Christ.

Or as the Lord said about John the Baptist, the best of them, will not be as blessed as “the least in the kingdom of God”.
--------------------------------------------------
Next you said.......

“The word Jew is not mentioned after Revelation 3:9. You are assuming the 144,000 are Jews!”

Who do you think, they will be?

 

[Me4Him]

Let's talk about the two witnesses in Rev. 11.

Are they two real people or are they symbolic?

Who were the Two witnesses who appeared with Jesus when he was transfigured,

and do I need to point out there are only 'two", not three or four.

I find it interesting that Rev. 11:4 describes them as the two olive trees and the two candlesticks. This suggest that they may symbolize something else.

Now, the witnesses are also described as olive trees. What they represent is less clear. In several OT locations the olive trees, or olive branches are equated with Israel.

Others say the olive trees produce olive oil, used as a fuel in lamps, so the olive trees and the lambstands (candlesticks) are closely related.

God has "TWO STICKS", Olive/Fig, that will become "ONE STICK" in his hand, Church/Israel.

Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, (Jesus/church) and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, (Israel) and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

Olives berries were beaten for their "OIL" (Spirit) to burn in the temple, (let your light shine)

But the main point is, that the witnesses (candlesticks--churches) are there on earth 42 months into the tribulation.

You wouldn't expect to pick apples off a cherry tree, would you,

Well, neither can you get "Olives berries" from a "Fig tree" or "FIGS" from a "VINE".

Joh 15:5 I am the vine,

Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. (at the same time)

fig=Jews
Olives berries=Christians
Vine=Jesus
fountain=God
Water=doctrine
fresh=church/grace period/Jesus/comforter
salt=OT period/Law and prophet/under the law

Have you ever heard someone ask why God doesn't work today as he did in the OT??

The "Law and Prophet", and being "under the law" system of leadership stopped with John/Jesus, today we're under a "GRACE" period, (fresh water)

Jesus didn't come to judge or condemn, we're not commanded to stone adulators.(salt water/under the law)

During the trib, Israel (world) goes back under the law, (Moses) and prophets (Elijah) system, the two witnesses.

Under Grace, we only "Spiritually die" to be saved, under the law will require a "literal death", the reason the AC is allowed to kill saints who become saved during the trib.

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,

Re 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

God uses the AC as a "ROD" to beat/chastise Israel for rejecting Jesus.

Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff (power/authority) in their hand is mine indignation.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Obviously, believers in Christ are not going to suffer this "chastisment",

and just as "obviously", is the fact that the "Grace" period, (fresh water) and being "under the law" (salt water) can not come from the same "FOUNTAIN" (God) at the same time,

the reason the salt water stopped with John/Jesus, and the "fresh water" begun,

and why the "fresh water" (church/Grace) will have to stop again before the "salt water" will start flowing again.

Matt 22, tells us Israel was invited to the "lamb's marriage supper" but refused to come, only "believers "IN CHRIST" attend (rapture) that wedding which takes place "DURING" the trib.

Da 9:27 And he (Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

The "HE" who is taken out of the way is the "Comforter" and the end of the "grace period", start of the trib.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

The first 69 weeks of Daniels prophecy was under the Law and L/P system, and so will the last week (trib) of his prophecy.

Now you know why God doesn't work today as he did in the OT. :thumbs:

And there's a dozen other ways the trib can be "Correctly" explained.

 

[OldRegular]

stillearning

I believe you are confused in your post #15.

In Post #13 in response to you I presented the following:

By OldRegular
“to what are they going to evangelize the world?”

The gentiles on the earth, that had not rejected the Gospel before the rapture.....
2Thessalonians 2:11 “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:”

By OldRegular
According to your doctrine there would be no one on earth who had not rejected the Gospel prior to the so-called rapture.

I was not commenting on 2Thessalonians 2:11. I was commenting on your statement that the 144,000 were going to evangelize:

The gentiles on the earth, that had not rejected the Gospel before the rapture.....

You completely misrepresent what I said in your post #15. If they had not rejected the Gospel before the "rapture" they would supposedly be "raptured" according to dispensational error and not available for evangelization.

 

[OldRegular]

Hello again OldRegular


Oh by the way, the JW’s don’t see the Jews in this passage either.
--------------------------------------------------

The Jehovah's Witnesses also believe in a literal 1000 year reign also. They sprang up in the 19th Century just like dispensationalism, Mormonism, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Science, etc.

 

[canadyjd]

There is a difference between rapture and return.

Matt. 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

Matt. 24 is clearly speaking of Christ returning for His elect (rapture).

After the tribulation, Jesus returns for His elect.

It is very plain. I don't see how you can view it any other way.

peace to youraying:

 

[Revmitchell]

Matt. 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

Matt. 24 is clearly speaking of Christ returning for His elect (rapture).

After the tribulation, Jesus returns for His elect.

It is very plain. I don't see how you can view it any other way.

peace to youraying:

First I wasn't trying to make a theological case I was just explaining the dispensational view. Second I fail to understand your post for the most part.