Arguments for a Post Trib. Rap.

[webdog]

Hello again webdog

Luke 16:19-31
V.19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
V.20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
V.21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
V.22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
V.23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
V.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
V.25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
V.26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
V.27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
V.28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
V.29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
V.30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
V.31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


“Abraham’s bosom” was paradise.
“hell” is hell.
And they were in the same place(below the earth), only being separated by “a great gulf”.

I think this is reading into the text something that is not there.

 

[webdog]

I'll piggyback off an answer above and add that Scripture indicates Christ did not go, spiritually, into Heaven for three days immediately after His death:

18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God, after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm. 19 In that state He also went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison 20 who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared; in it, a few—that is, eight people —were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 22 Now that He has gone into heaven, He is at God’s right hand, with angels, authorities, and powers subjected to Him.
1 Peter 3:18-22 (HCSB)


Notice how the text goes out of its way to point out that Christ proclaimed to the "spirits in prison" and "now" had "gone into heaven."

The language is very specific.

But regardless, Scripture and prophetic Scripture is clear that Christ's first coming was from birth until ascension and there is a second, bodily coming that is awaiting. There is a distinct separation between Christ's first coming and His second coming at the end of the age. Scripture is too specific about that. It isn't a good foil against historic premillenialism.

I'm not one who believes Christ descended into Hell to preach to the spirits there. That should be it's own thread, though

I do know that Christ told the one thief that he would be with Christ that very day in paradise. Paradise cannot mean anything other than Heaven, or the thief on the cross tagged along with Jesus in Hell.

 

[Darrenss1]

That passage says nothing of paradise being in the heart of the earth. Where did you get that from? It says Lazarus went to be by Abraham's side, and since Abraham was deemed righteous, he was with God...not in the earth...but in Heaven.

I think both positions are correct. IF Jesus could take Captive those Captive, or preach to the spirits in the earth and take them up to the paradise (heaven above), it tells me Jesus even as a spirit (in the 3 days) could move between below and above as He desired. So Jesus could take the thief on the cross to paradise above; or below then above (today you'll be with Me in paradise), then/or preach to the spirits below (in the 3 days), take them above..etc There is no reason to think it has to be either one or the other. We know some of what He did in those 3 days, in whatever order, its not the end of the world.

Darren

 

[stilllearning]

I think that this settles, the whole issue.........
Matthew 12:40
“For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

With no side trips to heaven.

 

[OldRegular]

I'm not one who believes Christ descended into Hell to preach to the spirits there. That should be it's own thread, though

I do know that Christ told the one thief that he would be with Christ that very day in paradise. Paradise cannot mean anything other than Heaven, or the thief on the cross tagged along with Jesus in Hell.

I agree again webdog. A lot of people don't understand that passage from Peter.

 

[OldRegular]

I think that this settles, the whole issue.........
Matthew 12:40
“For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

With no side trips to heaven.

It settles nothing. The body was in the grave for three days and three nights, nothing else.

 

[Darrenss1]

I think that this settles, the whole issue.........
Matthew 12:40
“For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

With no side trips to heaven.

Ok, so when did Abraham and those He took to paradise from Abraham's Bosom (where David was as well) actually end up in paradise (including the thief on the cross whom was supposed to be there the same day), before He rose from the dead after 3 days or when He ascended to the right hand of God the Father (some 40 days later I think from memory)? I don't see how anyone could be dogmatic about it.

Darren

 

[Me4Him]

The Origin of the First Resurrection

The term “the first resurrection” is found in Revelation 20:5-6: “[The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.] This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”


The sixth resurrection will be that of the Old Testament saints: “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt” [Daniel 12:2]. Though the fact that all people who die will be raised is commonly assumed in the Old Testament, there are relatively few references that speak specifically of their resurrection. This is one of the major passages.


According to Daniel 12:1, this resurrection will come at the close of the tribulation period described in Daniel 11:36-45:

In the first paragraph, the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years were finished,

In the third pargraph, he said Daniel's resurrection occurred at the end of the trib,

but the end of the trib is the "First resurrection", when the unsaved dead lived not and remained dead until the thousand years were finished,

So how could Daniel's prophecy be at the end of the trib and first resurrection, if the shame and everlasting contempt "STAY DEAD" until the thousand years are finished????

The last resurrection has to do with the judgment of the Great White Throne as recorded in Revelation 20:11-15. In this resurrection all the wicked dead, who up to this time have been in Hades, will be resurrected and cast into the lake of fire.

The GWT is the "ONLY TIME" the unsaved come out of hell for Judgment, prior to the GWT, no unsaved are resurrected, only the "RIGHTEOUS".

The GWT is the "ONLY TIME", both "SHEEP (from the MK) and GOATS" appear "TOGETHER" for Judgment, prior to this, no goats are resurrected.

The order of these seven resurrections should make plain that the resurrection of Revelation 20:5-6 is not first in the sense of being before all previous resurrections. If that is not the meaning, what does the term “the first resurrection” mean?

Every place the word resurrection is used, they are "back on the earth alive",

The "Rapture" is not called a "Resurrection" because they are "NOT" back on the earth, but go directly to heaven.

The "First Resurrection" is when the "BODY OF CHRIST" will be "Back on the earth, alive".

And it will occur "early in the morning of the "third day", (thousand year day), the time period in which we live.

http://i25.tinypic.com/1znaptj.jpg

Just two of the many ways the church will "Conform to his image".

 

[Darrenss1]

http://i25.tinypic.com/1znaptj.jpg

That's weird, never heard of the 3 day thing. So many end times theories floating around, I can't keep up with them... :laugh:

Darren

 

[Me4Him]

I think both positions are correct. IF Jesus could take Captive those Captive, or preach to the spirits in the earth and take them up to the paradise (heaven above), it tells me Jesus even as a spirit (in the 3 days) could move between below and above as He desired. So Jesus could take the thief on the cross to paradise above; or below then above (today you'll be with Me in paradise), then/or preach to the spirits below (in the 3 days), take them above..etc There is no reason to think it has to be either one or the other. We know some of what He did in those 3 days, in whatever order, its not the end of the world.

Darren

With the rich man "in hell" and a "great gulf" between him and Abraham, which no one could cross,

I think it's pretty clear, Abraham's bosom was not 'in hell".

 

[Me4Him]

That's weird, never heard of the 3 day thing. So many end times theories floating around, I can't keep up with them... :laugh:

Darren

One prophecy can have a "DUAL" fulfillment/application, one "Spiritual" to cover Jesus first coming, and one "Literal" to cover his second coming.

"Preterist" believe the "Spiritual", the Church the "literal", few see
"both sides".

 

[Darrenss1]

With the rich man "in hell" and a "great gulf" between him and Abraham, which no one could cross,

I think it's pretty clear, Abraham's bosom was not 'in hell".

I didn't say Abraham's Bosom was hell. What I said was "paradise" the thing Paul visited is heaven, maybe not the throne of God heaven but heaven nonetheless. For Abraham to get to "paradise" or heaven, the place Jesus said the thief will go express service, Jesus has to take them/him there. Use whatever definitions or scriptures you like, all I know is (laymans terms) there is up and down and the guys on the down went up at some time which you are alluding to. I personally think think Jesus could have taken them up during the time His body was in the grave but its not a big deal to me, except for the fact of the thief was promised an express pass, same day service to heaven, how the thief got to heaven the same day I am happy to ask God when I get to heaven, if I care that much to ask.

Just to add, Jesus said the thief would be "WITH ME" in paradise. Jesus obviously was planning to be in Paradise as well, take it or leave it.

Darren

 

[Me4Him]

I didn't say Abraham's Bosom was hell. What I said was "paradise" the thing Paul visited is heaven, maybe not the throne of God heaven but heaven nonetheless. For Abraham to get to "paradise" or heaven, the place Jesus said the thief will go express service, Jesus has to take them/him there. Use whatever definitions or scriptures you like, all I know is (laymans terms) there is up and down and the guys on the down went up at some time which you are alluding to. I personally think think Jesus could have taken them up during the time His body was in the grave but its not a big deal to me, except for the fact of the thief was promised an express pass, same day service to heaven, how the thief got to heaven the same day I am happy to ask God when I get to heaven, if I care that much to ask.

Just to add, Jesus said the thief would be "WITH ME" in paradise. Jesus obviously was planning to be in Paradise as well, take it or leave it.

Darren

I was refering to people who said Jesus went to hell to preach, he didn't, Abraham's bosom was his destination.

Jesus told Mary not to touch him when he was first resurrected, he had not yet ascended, later he told Thomas to touch him,

Touching anything "unclean" made the person "unclean", Jesus's first priority as to present the "perfect sacrifice" (his body) to God, after that, he was free to do whatever.

Some OT saints were resurrected appeared in Jerusalem when Jesus died,

If Jesus didn't take the OT saints to heaven until he ascended to remain there, evidently, those resurrected remained on the earth until that time,

Scripture doesn't say one way or the other.

 

[Darrenss1]

I was refering to people who said Jesus went to hell to preach, he didn't, Abraham's bosom was his destination.

Jesus told Mary not to touch him when he was first resurrected, he had not yet ascended, later he told Thomas to touch him,

Touching anything "unclean" made the person "unclean", Jesus's first priority as to present the "perfect sacrifice" (his body) to God, after that, he was free to do whatever.

Some OT saints were resurrected appeared in Jerusalem when Jesus died,

If Jesus didn't take the OT saints to heaven until he ascended to remain there, evidently, those resurrected remained on the earth until that time,

Scripture doesn't say one way or the other.

Again you aren't addressing the thief on the cross, I have no idea why. Its clear to me that Jesus could move around as a spirit, not like any normal spirit of a dead man stuck in Abraham's Bosom. Did the thief on the cross go to be with Jesus in paradise that same day or not? Paradise was not Abraham's Bosom otherwise Jesus would have said Abraham's Bosom.

Darren

 

[preachinjesus]

Well we should get this thread back on track...(I'm happy with another thread dealing with the days following Christ's crucifixion.)

Anyhoo, my basic premise (the place of Christ notwithstanding) is that Scripture is clear that the first coming of Christ was from birth until ascension and that the second coming of Christ will be a bodily return.

I don't accept that Christ's resurrection is a second coming event or that there are is more than two arrivals of Christ in the prophecy or Scripture. Thus my argument for the historical premillenial view stands that the second coming of Christ is at the escaton.

 

[Darrenss1]

I was refering to people who said Jesus went to hell to preach, he didn't, Abraham's bosom was his destination.

Jesus told Mary not to touch him when he was first resurrected, he had not yet ascended, later he told Thomas to touch him,

Touching anything "unclean" made the person "unclean", Jesus's first priority as to present the "perfect sacrifice" (his body) to God, after that, he was free to do whatever.

Some OT saints were resurrected appeared in Jerusalem when Jesus died,

If Jesus didn't take the OT saints to heaven until he ascended to remain there, evidently, those resurrected remained on the earth until that time,

Scripture doesn't say one way or the other.

The OT saints did not need to be resurrected to be taken up to heaven (from Abraham's Bosom), neither did Jesus need to be resurrected to go to heaven BUT that does not contradict the fact that Jesus rose bodily from the dead and futher "ascended" to heaven bodily to take His place on the throne at the right hand of God..

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

Thus my argument for the historical premillenial view stands that the second coming of Christ is at the escaton.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Darren

 

[OldRegular]

Me4Him

In my post#30 I presented an excerpt from John Walvoors’s writings to illustrate the following statement in that same post:

By OldRegular, Post #30
It is the dispensationalist who makes a cobweb out of Scripture. Every time they see the word resurrection they invent a new one.

In your post #48 you have erroneously attributed to me the excerpt I posted from Walvoord’s writings. There is nothing in Walvoords interpretation of the resurrections that I agree with. I want people on this thread and Forum to know that. I was simply quoting Walvoord to show the validity of the above statement by me.

There are only two resurrections in the Bible. the first was that of Jesus Christ. The second will be the general resurrection at the end of time as we know it consistent with John 5:28, 29.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello OldRegular

You said.........

“It settles nothing. The body was in the grave for three days and three nights, nothing else.”

Your right, is has nothing to do with the discussion that you and I are having, about weather or not John the Baptist was a member of the Church or not;

But it does settle the question that I am having with webdog, about Jesus going to heaven, immediately after his burial.
--------------------------------------------------
Before the resurrection, paradise was in the heart of the Earth.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Darrenss1

You asked........

“Ok, so when did Abraham and those He took to paradise from Abraham's Bosom (where David was as well) actually end up in paradise (including the thief on the cross whom was supposed to be there the same day), before He rose from the dead after 3 days or when He ascended to the right hand of God the Father (some 40 days later I think from memory)? I don't see how anyone could be dogmatic about it.”

Well Jesus didn’t take anybody(but the thief), “to” paradise:
Jesus and the thief, both went to paradise, as soon as they died.

But three days later, Jesus “moved” paradise, from the heart of the Earth, to Heaven.
--------------------------------------------------
Now we know this, because of the “contradiction” with Jesus’ statement, “Today you will be with me in paradise”, when the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus immediately went to the heart of the earth, for three days.

Remember the Bible has NO CONTRACTIONS;
So when something seems to be a contradiction, than there is another answer.