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Armenian view of Romans 9?
- Thread starter Jesus is Lord
- Start date
I was just wondering if anyone has considered other passages that compare the Lord to a potter and also talk about the people of Israel? What about the passage in Jeremiah 18? Could this be used to help understand what Paul is trying to convey when he says in Romans 9:21, "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" This may not be **scholarly** enough for those of you who are old pros at this, but what do you think? (After all, God chose foolish things like childlike faith to shame the wise!)
Jeremiah 18:3-13 reads as follows:
3 So I went down to the potter's house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD . "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
11 "Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, 'This is what the LORD says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.' 12 But they will reply, 'It's no use. We will continue with our own plans; each of us will follow the stubbornness of his evil heart.' "
Note first verses 7-8, where the Lord says that a "bad pot" (i.e., unrepentant Israel) may become a "good pot", if it repents of its evil. He is talking about the same lump of clay here. Likewise from verses 9-10, the Lord says that a good pot may become a bad one if it does evil in His sight. If the historical context of Paul's discussion points back to Israel in this way, it would appear that God is sovereign, but within a certain realm of contingency. And it is applied to nations in such a way that also extends to individual responsibility (verse 11).
Jeremiah 18:3-13 reads as follows:
3 So I went down to the potter's house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD . "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
11 "Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, 'This is what the LORD says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.' 12 But they will reply, 'It's no use. We will continue with our own plans; each of us will follow the stubbornness of his evil heart.' "
Note first verses 7-8, where the Lord says that a "bad pot" (i.e., unrepentant Israel) may become a "good pot", if it repents of its evil. He is talking about the same lump of clay here. Likewise from verses 9-10, the Lord says that a good pot may become a bad one if it does evil in His sight. If the historical context of Paul's discussion points back to Israel in this way, it would appear that God is sovereign, but within a certain realm of contingency. And it is applied to nations in such a way that also extends to individual responsibility (verse 11).
Isnt it odd that Our lord would use the analogy of a potter creating a pot.
That some readers understand that if the pot doesnt work as intended, its the pots fault and not the potters?.
Yet there is a conclusion of this analogy. The lord places the ultimate responsibility of failure on the potter and points to the ending of his story as the potter remakes the pot to work successfully.
It is true the initial failure of the first pot bore accountability for it failure to work.
Yet the responsibility towards the pot to work successfully or unsuccessfully ended with the potter.
Just as it is with human beings. We are accountable for our actions. we are bookkeepers of the things that we involved in.
Yet every christian should understand the responsibility ends with the Lord if one that He chooses to be called out for his purposes.
wether they stand or fall.
In the conclusion of Romans 11. Both vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy are under his sovereignty.and Both reach the same conclusion.
they both are made into vessels of mercy.
Where is the free will of the pot here?. There is none.
we are "accountable" in our lives. we are bookkeepers of the things we are involved in.
Yet it is the Potter who is ultimately "responsible" for our success and failures.
We are His creations.
Me2
That some readers understand that if the pot doesnt work as intended, its the pots fault and not the potters?.
Yet there is a conclusion of this analogy. The lord places the ultimate responsibility of failure on the potter and points to the ending of his story as the potter remakes the pot to work successfully.
It is true the initial failure of the first pot bore accountability for it failure to work.
Yet the responsibility towards the pot to work successfully or unsuccessfully ended with the potter.
Just as it is with human beings. We are accountable for our actions. we are bookkeepers of the things that we involved in.
Yet every christian should understand the responsibility ends with the Lord if one that He chooses to be called out for his purposes.
wether they stand or fall.
In the conclusion of Romans 11. Both vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy are under his sovereignty.and Both reach the same conclusion.
they both are made into vessels of mercy.
Where is the free will of the pot here?. There is none.
we are "accountable" in our lives. we are bookkeepers of the things we are involved in.
Yet it is the Potter who is ultimately "responsible" for our success and failures.
We are His creations.
Me2
Well stated Matt721, But I don't see anywhere in the quoted text that God gives the repentance to the clay, the nation, or the individual, but rather that God requires if of the clay, the nation and the individual.
So where does repentance come from? From within the clay, the nation, and within the individual, not as a gift of God. Repentance IS NOT A WORK, for those of you who may think it is. Repentance is a change of persuasion, belief, faith, etc. Repentance takes no effort and produces nothing!
So where does repentance come from? From within the clay, the nation, and within the individual, not as a gift of God. Repentance IS NOT A WORK, for those of you who may think it is. Repentance is a change of persuasion, belief, faith, etc. Repentance takes no effort and produces nothing!
According to Jeremiah 18, how does it follow that responsibility for success/failure lies with the potter? The interpretation for the potter/clay analogy is explicitly stated in the text in verses 5-12. The potter is not stuck with ultimate responsibility for failure here. I think it takes reading one's own preconceived notions ("common sense"?) back into verses 1-4 of what is meant by the potter/clay analogy. I just think we should be more careful to understand Paul's argument of Romans 9-11 in its full OT context, before we interpret the passages. In Jeremiah 18, the potter/clay scenario (verses 1-4) is not an exact analogy for the word of the Lord spoken to Jeremiah (verses 5-12), it was more or less the inspiration for Jeremiah. Our "common sense" interpretation, of what appears to be plainly stated in the text, may be wrong! Especially when it makes God to be the author of sin as in Romans 9.
Jeremiah's potter analogy stops at the destruction phase of his analogy. He states that the lord destroys his people because they were sacrificing their firstborn. they were attempting to work for their righteousness by providing their firstborn unto death.
they didnt realize they were all cursed.
even their babies.
(the true righteous sacrifice arrived on their scene. they missed his arrival) (the real firstborn-Jesus).
they were and still are scattered today
Romans 11 is the conclusion of the potter analogy and that only a few verses of futuristic prophecy.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Me2
they didnt realize they were all cursed.
even their babies.
(the true righteous sacrifice arrived on their scene. they missed his arrival) (the real firstborn-Jesus).
they were and still are scattered today
Romans 11 is the conclusion of the potter analogy and that only a few verses of futuristic prophecy.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Me2
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Ransom, its been over half a month are you still working on this?Originally posted by Ransom:
You hemmed and hawed for a week and only reluctantly posted a response to my article. What makes you think you are in a position to be griping now?
Show a little patience, Skandelon. It's a virtue, you know.
funny, thats not what the Bible says:
Ac 5:31-32 He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Ac 11:18 When they heard this, they 1quieted down and aglorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the brepentance that leads to life.”
Sorry, John
Granted, God repented that he made man (the flood story) But God does not give repentance to man. He gives man the reasons to repent, but does not do the repenting for man to whom He has previously given the ability and capacity.
You shall know the truth and the truth shall set your free.
For Lack of Knowledge, my people perish.
This does not sound like something that God would have to give to man. Especially in light of the truth that God created man with the capacity to have repentance from within. Repentance comes from the same part of man that joy comes from, it is knowledge that triggers either in man.
Granted, God repented that he made man (the flood story) But God does not give repentance to man. He gives man the reasons to repent, but does not do the repenting for man to whom He has previously given the ability and capacity.
You shall know the truth and the truth shall set your free.
For Lack of Knowledge, my people perish.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT willing that any should perish, but that ALLLLLLL should COME to REPENTANCE." - 2 Peter 3:9
It tells us, God does not want every person go to hell, He desires every person COME to repentance for salvation. God is lonsuffering toward us, means, He is very patience with us and sinners of the world.
During Noah's day, God could have destroyed all mennow if he wants to, but He was patience with men for 120 years till Noah finish built the Ark. God gave plenty time to people to have chnace to repentance before the flood. But, no one come to repent, so God sent rain pour upon them and destroyed.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
The Key words are "that all SHOULD COME TO repentence. Not that He gives to all men repentance. Yes, God is patient and longsuffering, and desires that all men will come to repent from sins and believe in HIM, unto their salvation, BUT God does not give to men the repentance, He allows them to repent! Repentance is the result of the believer's knowledge of his own sins. For if you believe in who and what Jesus is, you will be made aware of, through the work of the Holy Spirit, your sins, and we are commanded to first confess (some say, acknowledge) our sins, receive God's faithful forgiveness for our sins, THEN repent from continuance in sin. That is, Stop sinning, live the righteousness that your rebirth (faith) brings.
The Holy Spirit says, "you been doing (you name the sin) for a long time now, it's time for you to stop doing that sin". We humans are expected to obey the Holy Spirit!
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Granting the Gentiles repentance doesn't imply that God selects a certain number of the Gentiles to repent as Calvinists seem to assert.
It simply means God has now revealed the mystery that Gentiles are being called into covenant with him and therefore have been granted the opportunity to repent and believe. Before it was thought that only Jews were granted entrance into the covenant, but after Peter's dream and Paul conversion the Christian world knew that the Gentiles were also granted repentance unto salvation.
Its really that simple
It simply means God has now revealed the mystery that Gentiles are being called into covenant with him and therefore have been granted the opportunity to repent and believe. Before it was thought that only Jews were granted entrance into the covenant, but after Peter's dream and Paul conversion the Christian world knew that the Gentiles were also granted repentance unto salvation.
Its really that simple
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Yelsew,
Yes, you are right, I think I misunderstand what you was talking about repentance. Yes, I understand what you mean. I agree with you.
Yes, you are right, I think I misunderstand what you was talking about repentance. Yes, I understand what you mean. I agree with you.
I know you are often sorry about what the Bible says Yelsew, because it doesn’t fit in with your manmade religion, but, the Bible says that God gives repentance, and the Bible takes precedence... yes, even over you...
here they are for you, again... in case you missed them...
Act 5:31 ESV God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Act 11:18 ESV When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."
So there you have it Yelsew, the truth, and if you would only believe it, you would truly be free indeed.... so believe the Bible! Be free!Instead of coming up with convoluted stories about how the Bible doesn't really mean what it says....
here they are for you, again... in case you missed them...
Act 5:31 ESV God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Act 11:18 ESV When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."
So there you have it Yelsew, the truth, and if you would only believe it, you would truly be free indeed.... so believe the Bible! Be free!Instead of coming up with convoluted stories about how the Bible doesn't really mean what it says....
oh... and here is another point to consider;
Phi 2:12-13 ESV Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, (13) for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
here God's sovereignty is upheld, with the balance of man's responsibility included, instead of how it is so often exalted in today's western mindset that always has to be first in priority, at the center, a truly anthropocentric religion.... its sad really....
Phi 2:12-13 ESV Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, (13) for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
here God's sovereignty is upheld, with the balance of man's responsibility included, instead of how it is so often exalted in today's western mindset that always has to be first in priority, at the center, a truly anthropocentric religion.... its sad really....
John I am free from the encumberance of lack of knowledge that you labor under.
It is as Skandelon said
In those scriptures you posted, Repentance given, or granted, is the "right to repent", not the act of repenting. The act of repenting comes from the remorsefulness of the spirit of the one who is guilty of sinning. It is the contriteness of the human spirit that causes the action of repenting, that is, the deliberate ceasing from doing the sin that was once a normal part of life before realizing (being convicted of) that the offence is damaging to others as well as one's self, and that change (repentance) needs to take place.
You see, John, one must "be granted the right" before one can do the act. The same applies to salvation, One must be granted the right to come to salvation before one can actually be saved. Jesus gave that right to "Whosoever believeth in HIM....". Now that we have come to believe in Jesus and have that everlasting life, we are granted the right to repent from sinning. That doesn't mean that we do so, but if we do in accordance with how we are convicted by the Holy Spirit, or through our individual belief in the instructions contained in God's Holy Word. Then we, by repenting, are then found to be "in a state of repentance".
Now as to your last post, Where do you think the knowledge that we have about sin comes from? Yes it is God who grants us the right and privilege and obligation. It is God's "finished work" that continues to instruct ALL who believe in Him regarding sin, Salvation, Confession, Repentance, Grace, Love, Mercy and Justice, among all the rest of God's finished work. You see, God is at rest, having completed all the work that is necessary for man's salvation. Man has the onus put upon him to respond to God, and that is not by works lest any man should boast. Well without works what can man do? Believe and receive, Confess and receive, Repent and live righteously...in that order, and none of which are works!
