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Arminian Aberrations

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Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
But the issue here is that the atonement, though sufficient for all, is not literally applied to all.

"There is no debate among Christians as to the sufficiency of that satisfaction to accomplish the salvation of all men, however vast the number. This is absolutely limitless. 2d. Nor as to its applicability to the case of any and every possible human sinner who will ever exist. The relation of all to the demands of the law are identical. What would save one would save another. 3d. Nor to the bona fide character of the offer which God has made to 'whomsoever wills' in the gospel. It is applicable to every one, it will infallibly be applied to every believer. 4th. Nor as to its actual application." - AA Hodge

I honestly think you and AA Hodge may just not agree on this particular point...or at least you differ in the wording...

"There is no debate among Christians as to its applicability to the case of any and every possible human sinner who will ever exist."

I can't imagine you ever saying that, can you?
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
"There is no debate among Christians as to the sufficiency of that satisfaction to accomplish the salvation of all men, however vast the number. This is absolutely limitless. 2d. Nor as to its applicability to the case of any and every possible human sinner who will ever exist. The relation of all to the demands of the law are identical. What would save one would save another. 3d. Nor to the bona fide character of the offer which God has made to 'whomsoever wills' in the gospel. It is applicable to every one, it will infallibly be applied to every believer. 4th. Nor as to its actual application." - AA Hodge
I honestly think you and AA Hodge may just not agree on this particular point...or at least you differ in the wording...

I do not have a problem with that remark. I confess I would not word it that way, but what he is saying is accurate in my opinion.

What I am debating you on here is that you seem to be implying that the two Hodges were stating that Jesus died for all men equally and that the atonement is applicable to all men equally.

That is NOT what they are saying.

"There is no debate among Christians as to its applicability to the case of any and every possible human sinner who will ever exist."

I can't imagine you ever saying that, can you?

No, I would not say it THAT way, but I don't have a problem with it either. In other words I agree with what they are saying in context.

In context they are NOT saying that the atonement is EQUALLY applicable to all. They recognize that Jesus died to ACTUALLY atone for and redeem his own people.
 

glfredrick

New Member
HERE is a web page of a hyperist who lists all these Calvinists scholars as heretics along with their quotes because their view of the atonement is not limited enough for him. You can read all the quotes to see for yourself... Make sure you comment on AA Hodge too while you're at it. :)

Thanks for admitting that you are not doing your own research on this issue. Makes sense. Also, you trust that someone else will cite accurately an individual with whom they do not agree. That is rather shoddy sholarship.

I'd prefer to have the book and page cited where Hodge (which one?) said that stuff so I can read it in context.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Thanks for admitting that you are not doing your own research on this issue. Makes sense. Also, you trust that someone else will cite accurately an individual with whom they do not agree. That is rather shoddy sholarship.
:laugh: Yeah, there is such a high standard to meet around here. Sorry about that. :laugh:

Surely you must have found some major discrepancies or something to provoke this kind of response? No?

These are direct quotes from their actual work, but if you have evidence to show otherwise I'd be happy to consider it.

I'd prefer to have the book and page cited where Hodge (which one?) said that stuff so I can read it in context.
Then look it up. I'm not your momma. :smilewinkgrin:

I'm just messing with you bro...this just really gave me a good chuckle.
 

glfredrick

New Member
:laugh: Yeah, there is such a high standard to meet around here. Sorry about that. :laugh:

Surely you must have found some major discrepancies or something to provoke this kind of response? No?

These are direct quotes from their actual work, but if you have evidence to show otherwise I'd be happy to consider it.


Then look it up. I'm not your momma. :smilewinkgrin:

I'm just messing with you bro...this just really gave me a good chuckle.

By now, you should assume that I will look it up.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
I do not have a problem with that remark. I confess I would not word it that way, but what he is saying is accurate in my opinion.
But had I or Quantum said it I seriously doubt you would allow so much grace, am I wrong?

What I am debating you on here is that you seem to be implying that the two Hodges were stating that Jesus died for all men equally and that the atonement is applicable to all men equally.
No, I'm saying Christ's atonement is a sufficient satisfaction for the sins of all men and God sincerely desires that every man to whom the atonement is offered would trust in it. And if it is truly sufficient it must be truly applicable.

Maybe you can better relate to Shedd, because he is actually addressing the very same accusation of "that view is universalism" that started this mess:

"It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the Universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is, Because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner. 'By faith are ye saved. He that believeth shall be saved,' Ephesians 2:8; Mark 16:16. The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made, but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it, would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ's death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it, as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men, therefore no men are lost, is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe, therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul.

To affirm the sufficiency of the atonement demands that you admit that the only limitation or hinderance for salvation is man's faith response (whether effectually caused by God or not), which if I recall you denied in an earlier debate. For if something is said to be sufficient then is must be applicable otherwise how can it be sufficient? That would be like saying this ticket is sufficient to grant you entrance into the show, but its not applicable to men. The second statement negates the first. Likewise to state the atonement is sufficient for everyone, but its not applicable to everyone is non-sensical, because it wouldn't be sufficient to those its not applicable.
 
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quantumfaith

Active Member
You fellows sometimes make my head spin more than power series solutions to higher order non-linear non-homogeneous systems of differential equations. :)
 
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