Calvibaptist
New Member
So, if a lie is told about a view for a long enough time, that makes it true?
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Arminian, Calvinism and a third view
- Thread starter Timtoolman
- Start date
I am saying that God has chosen to change (regenerate) some number of people so that they freely forsake sin and choose Christ. All others could repent and believe but they won't; not because God won't allow it, but because they will never give up their sin for His sake. The responsibility and the choices of all are real even if they are inevitable.
Timtoolman
New Member
So, if a lie is told about a view for a long enough time, that makes it true? </font>[/QUOTE]I would not say its a lie. More like a miss understanding. However the miss understanding seems to happen over and over again. So Maybe it is the words you all are using. I see it over and over again. When someone is untroduce to the teachings of calvinism, and they know their bible, the same accusations come up.
Timtoolman
New Member
Whatever, but in reality they have not choice. God has not given them a choice. If you can only choose to reject then that is not a choice. if it takes intervention for God to make man able to choose, and He alone can and does give man choice, then God is making the choice. Man has no choice. That what the arguement is, is it not?
Calvibaptist
New Member
No, Tim. That is what you guys keep saying our position is. Our position is that there is a real choice out there. But, because of the fall, man's will and desires are corrupted as well. Therefore, no one wants the right thing. Ex - no kid wants peas even though they are good for them. Every kid wants candy even though it is bad for them.
We all naturally desire sin. We do not naturally desire God as He has revealed Himself. We don't desire to come to God on His terms. The choice is a valid choice, we just don't want to make the right choice.
We all naturally desire sin. We do not naturally desire God as He has revealed Himself. We don't desire to come to God on His terms. The choice is a valid choice, we just don't want to make the right choice.
Timtoolman
New Member
Hmmm I see what your saying and why the problem we are having getting togehter on this. It goes back to the term "total inability". I do not believe it too be so. In other words God has made it so man can see and know there is a God and He is Lord. So in the way you show above whatever I understand and can agree. I just disagree that God has made it so man cannot respond. I find the opposite in fact.
Timtoolman
New Member
HOw is that so in your opinion, whatever?
That predestination does not imply causation? I'm not sure that I could say how it is so to my satisfaction, much less to your satisfaction, but I believe it is so because the Bible teaches that God predestined certain things that were sinful, like the crucifixion of Christ, and yet we know that God does not cause people to sin.
Timtoolman
New Member
Agreed! I am not sure you are the normal calvinist type here on this board.
QUOTE]Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Dispite what calvinst may claim there are more views then just two. [/QUOTE]
I agree Timtoolman; however the Calvinist and the Arminian are not all “wrong”. They each have enough “right” in them for man to believe within his knowledge that he is right and the other is wrong.
I believe what you posed in this post, is the answer. This is a “mystery” in the “mysteries” of God. But as we read His Word, we find there are a good many of “mysteries” revealed. There are “gems” all over the landscape. Some find different ones in their studies, and some do not. As God “knows” us, he foreknows those that will find hardly any, some more, and some a lot. Regardless how many one may find, does not determine are have anything to do with our salvation today. If we “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation, we will be saved”. The saved Calvinist is no more or no less saved than is the Arminian. God knows both. Then we find God also knows those saved that consider this subject as a “mystery” not revealed.
But is that it? A lot was revealed to Jesus’ Apostles in Mark 4:11, ”And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables”. But, as we know we cannot find the answer in those “mysteries”. However as we all know, we go to a man whom Christ from heaven revealed a “secret”. In this "secret" in the mysteries, I believe we can find "this" mystery revealed.
What was in this secret? To reveal to man “The eternal purpose of God”. We know to whom Christ revealed His heavenly gospel, and all must know this is true for in all such discussions lead to the Epistles of Paul. Some discussion I have read on this board of late, come very close, and one or two at the very doorstep of finding this “mystery” that is so elusive.
I by no means claim to be the only one that can see what is called “free will”, being foreknown, and also predestined. Also I wouldn't think it be necessary to be a certain type of “dispensationalist” to see what is divided out for us. For me, I ask God to show me what He will. As time goes on, He has pointed out a few things to me, just as he has to all you here, as you study to make yourselves approved.
So where do we go to find out such things, things contained in the “secret”? We go to where it is discussed. Predestination is peculiar to Paul, as is giving us the meaning of the eternal “purpose” of God, but knowing other mysteries in the “secret” are revealed to Paul.
I believe Paul pretty much lays it out for us in Romans 8, before moving into chapter 9, and then solves our problem in chapter 10, if only we will accept what scriptures reveals to us. After all, are we to be of any that write outside of scripture? God’s Word lives in His Book, so we are not to follow any, regardless of their stature held by man. We must look and study from the source.
Just as you challenge Timtoolman, “there are more views then just two”. I see no contradiction to His Word in what He has shown me. I see it is we that “choose”, and it is He that “knows” us, but we must start with the “purpose of God”.
Romans 8:28-30, ”And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
Romans 10:12-13, ”For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
I personally can see what Christ revealed to Paul, and that Paul understood, for Christ had Paul separate out to us the truth it being our choice, for God “purposed” it so, in order for God to “foreknow” us. Here again God divides His Word, which He always brings back together. We are to understand this only became know after Damascus Road and applied in this “dispensation” for today there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. Those He chose are now joining we which today chose Him. We know God chose Israel for His own, and Jesus said they were the only ones He came for. In John 15:16 Jesus says “I have chosen you”, and He did not lose any but one, that son of perdition in order for scripture to be fulfilled.
Can we find anywhere in scripture that Jesus said he chose we today? The only way we can make sense of it is to understand His relationship with His people, and then see that was not the “Eternal Purpose” of God. All things are New.
How are we today to be saved? “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be Saved”. His people could not do that for they didn’t Know His Name, and He had not shed His blood. He called our name (He knows us) in “foreknowledge” for we “called Him by Name to Save us.
I believe we can find from Christ in heaven, “mysteries” revealed, not before known since the beginning.
Had to hurry up toward the last, as way past my bedtime.
Christian faith, ituttut
Dispite what calvinst may claim there are more views then just two. [/QUOTE]
I agree Timtoolman; however the Calvinist and the Arminian are not all “wrong”. They each have enough “right” in them for man to believe within his knowledge that he is right and the other is wrong.
I believe what you posed in this post, is the answer. This is a “mystery” in the “mysteries” of God. But as we read His Word, we find there are a good many of “mysteries” revealed. There are “gems” all over the landscape. Some find different ones in their studies, and some do not. As God “knows” us, he foreknows those that will find hardly any, some more, and some a lot. Regardless how many one may find, does not determine are have anything to do with our salvation today. If we “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation, we will be saved”. The saved Calvinist is no more or no less saved than is the Arminian. God knows both. Then we find God also knows those saved that consider this subject as a “mystery” not revealed.
But is that it? A lot was revealed to Jesus’ Apostles in Mark 4:11, ”And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables”. But, as we know we cannot find the answer in those “mysteries”. However as we all know, we go to a man whom Christ from heaven revealed a “secret”. In this "secret" in the mysteries, I believe we can find "this" mystery revealed.
What was in this secret? To reveal to man “The eternal purpose of God”. We know to whom Christ revealed His heavenly gospel, and all must know this is true for in all such discussions lead to the Epistles of Paul. Some discussion I have read on this board of late, come very close, and one or two at the very doorstep of finding this “mystery” that is so elusive.
I by no means claim to be the only one that can see what is called “free will”, being foreknown, and also predestined. Also I wouldn't think it be necessary to be a certain type of “dispensationalist” to see what is divided out for us. For me, I ask God to show me what He will. As time goes on, He has pointed out a few things to me, just as he has to all you here, as you study to make yourselves approved.
So where do we go to find out such things, things contained in the “secret”? We go to where it is discussed. Predestination is peculiar to Paul, as is giving us the meaning of the eternal “purpose” of God, but knowing other mysteries in the “secret” are revealed to Paul.
I believe Paul pretty much lays it out for us in Romans 8, before moving into chapter 9, and then solves our problem in chapter 10, if only we will accept what scriptures reveals to us. After all, are we to be of any that write outside of scripture? God’s Word lives in His Book, so we are not to follow any, regardless of their stature held by man. We must look and study from the source.
Just as you challenge Timtoolman, “there are more views then just two”. I see no contradiction to His Word in what He has shown me. I see it is we that “choose”, and it is He that “knows” us, but we must start with the “purpose of God”.
Romans 8:28-30, ”And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
Romans 10:12-13, ”For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
I personally can see what Christ revealed to Paul, and that Paul understood, for Christ had Paul separate out to us the truth it being our choice, for God “purposed” it so, in order for God to “foreknow” us. Here again God divides His Word, which He always brings back together. We are to understand this only became know after Damascus Road and applied in this “dispensation” for today there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. Those He chose are now joining we which today chose Him. We know God chose Israel for His own, and Jesus said they were the only ones He came for. In John 15:16 Jesus says “I have chosen you”, and He did not lose any but one, that son of perdition in order for scripture to be fulfilled.
Can we find anywhere in scripture that Jesus said he chose we today? The only way we can make sense of it is to understand His relationship with His people, and then see that was not the “Eternal Purpose” of God. All things are New.
How are we today to be saved? “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be Saved”. His people could not do that for they didn’t Know His Name, and He had not shed His blood. He called our name (He knows us) in “foreknowledge” for we “called Him by Name to Save us.
I believe we can find from Christ in heaven, “mysteries” revealed, not before known since the beginning.
Had to hurry up toward the last, as way past my bedtime.
Christian faith, ituttut
Uhh, thanks, I think. I am not sure that you are normal either.
Just kidding. I know what you mean, and maybe I'm not normal, but I think I am. If other Calvinists think I'm wrong I'd love to hear it.
P.S. - If you can find a copy of Grudem's Systematic Theology, maybe from a church library or somewhere, you should read the chapter on God's Providence. He goes into the traditional Reformed view, and he lists several traditional Arminian objections and responds to each of them. I find that kind of thing fascinating. In fact, if you cannot borrow it I would recommend that you buy it. It lists for around $40 but I found a copy from www.wtsbooks.com for around $25. I'm sure you would also do well at Amazon of CBD or other sites like those.
Timtoolman
New Member
Thnaks Whatever, I ordered it and will let you know when I get it.
Timtoolman
New Member
I agree Timtoolman; however the Calvinist and the Arminian are not all “wrong”. They each have enough “right” in them for man to believe within his knowledge that he is right and the other is wrong.
I believe what you posed in this post, is the answer. This is a “mystery” in the “mysteries” of God. But as we read His Word, we find there are a good many of “mysteries” revealed. There are “gems” all over the landscape. Some find different ones in their studies, and some do not. As God “knows” us, he foreknows those that will find hardly any, some more, and some a lot. Regardless how many one may find, does not determine are have anything to do with our salvation today. If we “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation, we will be saved”. The saved Calvinist is no more or no less saved than is the Arminian. God knows both. Then we find God also knows those saved that consider this subject as a “mystery” not revealed.
But is that it? A lot was revealed to Jesus’ Apostles in Mark 4:11, ”And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables”. But, as we know we cannot find the answer in those “mysteries”. However as we all know, we go to a man whom Christ from heaven revealed a “secret”. In this "secret" in the mysteries, I believe we can find "this" mystery revealed.
What was in this secret? To reveal to man “The eternal purpose of God”. We know to whom Christ revealed His heavenly gospel, and all must know this is true for in all such discussions lead to the Epistles of Paul. Some discussion I have read on this board of late, come very close, and one or two at the very doorstep of finding this “mystery” that is so elusive.
I by no means claim to be the only one that can see what is called “free will”, being foreknown, and also predestined. Also I wouldn't think it be necessary to be a certain type of “dispensationalist” to see what is divided out for us. For me, I ask God to show me what He will. As time goes on, He has pointed out a few things to me, just as he has to all you here, as you study to make yourselves approved.
So where do we go to find out such things, things contained in the “secret”? We go to where it is discussed. Predestination is peculiar to Paul, as is giving us the meaning of the eternal “purpose” of God, but knowing other mysteries in the “secret” are revealed to Paul.
I believe Paul pretty much lays it out for us in Romans 8, before moving into chapter 9, and then solves our problem in chapter 10, if only we will accept what scriptures reveals to us. After all, are we to be of any that write outside of scripture? God’s Word lives in His Book, so we are not to follow any, regardless of their stature held by man. We must look and study from the source.
Just as you challenge Timtoolman, “there are more views then just two”. I see no contradiction to His Word in what He has shown me. I see it is we that “choose”, and it is He that “knows” us, but we must start with the “purpose of God”.
Romans 8:28-30, ”And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
Romans 10:12-13, ”For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
I personally can see what Christ revealed to Paul, and that Paul understood, for Christ had Paul separate out to us the truth it being our choice, for God “purposed” it so, in order for God to “foreknow” us. Here again God divides His Word, which He always brings back together. We are to understand this only became know after Damascus Road and applied in this “dispensation” for today there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. Those He chose are now joining we which today chose Him. We know God chose Israel for His own, and Jesus said they were the only ones He came for. In John 15:16 Jesus says “I have chosen you”, and He did not lose any but one, that son of perdition in order for scripture to be fulfilled.
Can we find anywhere in scripture that Jesus said he chose we today? The only way we can make sense of it is to understand His relationship with His people, and then see that was not the “Eternal Purpose” of God. All things are New.
How are we today to be saved? “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be Saved”. His people could not do that for they didn’t Know His Name, and He had not shed His blood. He called our name (He knows us) in “foreknowledge” for we “called Him by Name to Save us.
I believe we can find from Christ in heaven, “mysteries” revealed, not before known since the beginning.
Had to hurry up toward the last, as way past my bedtime.
Christian faith, ituttut [/QUOTE]
You are saying that God chose in one dispensation and now in another we choose?
Romans 8:28-30, ”And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
Romans 10:12-13, ”For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Can we find anywhere in scripture that Jesus said he chose we today? The only way we can make sense of it is to understand His relationship with His people, and then see that was not the “Eternal Purpose” of God. All things are New.</font>[/QUOTE]That is what you see, but that is not what I am saying. I should have been more specific, as I think others can see what I see. I tried to show in my last paragraph above "His relationship with His people" that He came for".
If you will notice, it is not I but what scripture points out. Please notice His Purpose. Christ Jesus is the Purpose of God. Are not “all things New”?
What I’m saying is Paul tells us new things, and explains so we can understand our dispensation, and the others. What Paul points out here is “Now, today we gentiles are included. We were not before, for He did not “know” us. He knew His people the nation Israel, and Now through Christ Jesus (His purpose) He knows us. From Abraham until Damascus Road God deals with and knows His People.
We cannot, and should not endeavor to be a Jew today, or be like one for He has a special love for them. ”You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities,” Amos 3:2. If we want to be like them with all of their blessings, we are also going to have to be punished with them.
I show you dispensations, and how He chooses. Through Jesus Christ He Now Knows Us, predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.
Christian faith, ituttut
Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Ro 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful;
Ro 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge,
Ro 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
The Spirit doesn't have to make a call for a person to be cognizance of God, but man is still held accountable as if the spirit had called.
Timtoolman
New Member
I disagree Me4Him. God does draw all men to Him. Without they would not come on their own. but your way still puts it in God's hands.