Arminian, General, or Free Will Baptists

Michael,

The Primitives are essentialy hyper Calvinists and yes they protested the mission work of CALVINIST Baptists in the 1800's. The SBC was founded by Calvinists and when Daniel Parkers Hardshell error invaded Baptist work in the South it was CALVINISTS that opposed his extemist hypercalvinism that is well documented in most state association records. I am no defender of Hardshellism or the Primitive Baptists. Those who oppose Missions and evangelism are wrong.


By the way, there are many who believe that Charles Wesley was actually a Calvinist. I'm not sure myself but his classic AND CAN IT BE? sounds like a Calvinist anthem.

[ September 05, 2001: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

Michael Wrenn said, "And, whether you like it or believe it or not, Arminian Baptists find much support for their beliefs in scripture."

Then why is it you cannot articulate your beliefs by the scriptures? All you seem to be capable of are emotional cheap shots.

A man who lacks judgment derides his neighbor, but a man of understanding holds his tongue. (Prov 11:12 NIV)

 

How about the parable of the seeds? The seed grows in two of the areas where believers fall away. The seed is the word of God and such people truely accept the word of God and grow, yet they die. The weeds of the world kills some people, and persection kills others. Both of these groups are not saved. They die.

How do you handle Galatians 5:19-21? Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

It seems that people have a choice. If they choose to live in such a way, they choose to not inherit the kingdom of God.

How about 1 Corinthinas 5:1-5?

It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Why deliver such a one to Satan if there is no free will? Why try to change someone's behavior at all, if one's behavior has nothing to do with salvation? Yet we are instructed by Paul to help change another's behavior so that this person might be saved.


I know this one is from the Old Testament, but I believe that God is the same and treats the heart the same way.

Ezekiel 18:21-28

"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. "Yet you say, `The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die.

 

Michael,

In defense of Calvin, it is mythology that he burned Servetus. Calvin had no political authority and Servetus would have been burned in any Europeon nation be it Catholic or Protestant. Regardless, Calvinism did not originate from Calvin and certaintly all of us have mud in our background. We certaintly wouldn't want to bring up Arminian Churches in the south giving tithes or offerings to the KKK in the early 1900's would we?

 

If I might quickly comment:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How about the parable of the seeds? The seed grows in two of the areas where believers fall away. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The seed does not grow where believers fall away. The reason they fall away is because the salvation never was real. They were not believers who fall away. There are too many Scriptures that say this can't happen. However, it really has very little to do with this debate. You cannot press the point too far or you end up as a allegorist (of whom Origen would be proud). The point is that three types of people fall away and thus prove that they never believed.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How do you handle Galatians 5:19-21? ... It seems that people have a choice. If they choose to live in such a way, they choose to not inherit the kingdom of God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one is arguing that they don't have a choice. Their choice is to follow their nature one hundred percent of the time. But again, this passage does not address this debate. The point of this passage is that people who behave in certain ways give evidence that they were never regenerated.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How about 1 Corinthinas 5:1-5? ... Why deliver such a one to Satan if there is no free will? Why try to change someone's behavior at all, if one's behavior has nothing to do with salvation? Yet we are instructed by Paul to help change another's behavior so that this person might be saved.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Helping to change behavior in others is called discipleship. Again, this passage really has nothing to do with the topic.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Ezekiel 18:21-28<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Again, not really addressing the argument. Those who turn will be saved and those who do not will not. The question is, where does the will to turn come from? The answer is God. Those who do not turn do not want to. God allows them to go exactly where they want to go. He does not intervent as he does for his elect.

 

Actually, only two of the three fall away. The seeds that fall on the path represent people who reject the word of God right away. These people never accepted God's truth, therefore these people can't fall away. The other two groups accept the word of God and it grows in their hearts. The problem is that when troubles come along, the word of God dies in their hearts. These two groups, the people caught up in worldly problems and the persecuted who give in, at one time believed in God and accepted His Truth.

To say that these people were not really God's elect is true. To say that in the end God knew that they weren't going to be saved is true. This is only true because God exists outside of time. The future is going to unrole itself as God already knows it will. The choices we make are ours to make, God just exists outside of time, therefore already knowing what we are to do. Our future is God's past, present and future. Just as we had free will to do whatever it was that we did yesterday at that time, our lives are to God.

To say that God already knows our decisions does not mean that we don't have the free will to make those decisions.

If this were not true, then why did Jesus warn us to judge a tree by its fruits so that we would not be fooled?


God doesn't take joy in men choosing to fall away.

I will comment on the other scriptures later.

 

Tuor (and Michael),

Galatians 5:19-21 is talking about unregenerate sinners (perpetual state of sin).

1 Corinthians 5:1-5: it amounts to putting that person out of the blessing of Christian worship and fellowship (getting rid of “a little leaven”) by thrusting him into Satan’s realm, the world system. The “destruction of the flesh” means this person will suffer consequences, perhaps illness or even physical death, so that this saved saint's "spirt" may be “saved in the day of the Lord.”

Ezekiel 18:21-28: Righteous man does not equate to “saved man.” The comparison is between a “wicked man” who turns away from ALL sin and keeps ALL of God’s decrees (under the Law and not grace) and a “good man.” There are good, morally upright people today that put some of us Christians to shame, who aren’t saved.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. (1 John 2:19 NKJV)

[ September 06, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

Michael,

Just a nickname. Pauline theology (Apostle Paul) might be a better term for Calvinism.

 

John,

Are you trying to say that the man who is having sex with his father's wife will be saved, even though he would continue in his sinful lifestyle? If I understand you correctly, this man's punishment will be at the hands of man and not by God. Is this true? I would think that if God wanted to cause this man physical discomfort for his chosen lifestyle, God could do this without the help of man.

You are beginning to sound gnostic. The perfect soul vs the sinful flesh, never the two have anything to do with each other. Jesus says otherwise. By the fruit the heart will be known. By choosing to live such a lifestyle the man's shows his heart to be that of the sinful nature. According to Galatians 5, those who live according to the flesh will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Nowhere do I read in Galatians 5 that this warning is only for those who haven't been born again. It simply states that those who live according to the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Those who add to this scripture are doing so at the risk of their own souls.

 

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. (1 John 2:19 NKJV)

John,

You post this as a support of eternal security, yet I see it as being able to fall away(free will). While they were with them, everyone thought they were of them. It was only when they showed their true colors and rejected Christ were they seen as lost. Until they left, they appeared saved. For a time, they probably believed themselves saved (seed sown in shallow ground or in the weeds). When push came to shove, their true heart was shown. Their destiny was not with God. They were not of the elect. They chose poorly, and God knew that they would.

This is the way I understand the scripture. The reason I am posting these things is because someone said there is no scriptural basis for my belief. I hope you can begin to see that there is. It may not be the perfect understanding of the scriptures, but there is scripture to back up the position. There is more, my next post will be about Romans 1&2.(Man's choice to ignore God)

 

Tuor: Are you trying to say that the man who is having sex with his father's wife will be saved, even though he would continue in his sinful lifestyle?

No, Paul was chastening the church for not dealing with sin amongst them, one so vile as to repulse the godless. Paraphrasing, Paul says, “Get him out of the church. Excommunicate him. The unrepentant person may suffer greatly under God’s judgment, but will not be an evil influence in the church; and he will more likely be saved (“may be saved”) under that judgment than if tolerated and accepted in the church. Why did Paul say “may be saved?” Only God knew the man’s heart.

According to Galatians 5, those who live according to the flesh will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Nowhere do I read in Galatians 5 that this warning is only for those who haven't been born again. It simply states that those who live according to the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Those who add to this scripture are doing so at the risk of their own souls.

Tuor: You post this as a support of eternal security

No, I posted it to explain that the Galatians passage is comparable and speaks to unregenerate sinners. The section is contrasting works of the Holy Spirit with works of the flesh, not saints and the lost. “They which do such things” implies “those who practice such things. (NLT)” It simply says, paraphrasing, “these are the works (fruit) of the flesh, and whoever practices such things are not saved.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You say that the destruction of the flesh is the physical body, while I believe it is talking about the sinful nature. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paul is turning him over to Satan for the destruction of the "sinful nature"?? Why would Satan destroy the sinful nature? He wants you to have a sinful nature.

To me, the only assurance of this man's salvation is that Paul, under the inspiration of the Spirit, says that his soul will be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. It seems clear the ultimate outcome will be repentance. Many believe, as I am inclined to, that this man is referred to in 2 Cor 2 as the one who repented. It may or may not be.

If this man in 1 cor 5 had not repented, he would have given evidence that he was of the flesh as in Gal 5. It is incorrect to assert that Christian's don't sin (1 John 1:8-2:2). It is likewise incorrect to assert that Christian's can continue to live in sin indefinitely (Heb 12).

[ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]