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Arminian God cruel and arbitrary

GeneMBridges

New Member
Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GeneMBridges:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
No that is not the Arminian solution.


The God who "draws ALL mankind to Himself" does it effectively --

In Christ,

Bob
Not unless you're a universalist or you're somehow redefining what "effectively" means, Bob You do not believe in efficacous drawing, our you would be a Calvinist. </font>[/QUOTE]Calvinism is that which "redefines effective" not the Arminian position.

In John 1 Christ is said to be the light that coming into the world - enlightens EVERY MAN.

Calvinism argument would charge that this is not really efficient or effective SINCE the same chapter says "but men loved darkness rather than light".

In other Words - God giving man free will - is used by Calvinism to charge God with the blame for man's failures as "if" bad choices on our part makes God "ineffecient" or "ineffective".

Arminians would never take such a leap into the night. You have used a circular argument by inserting the Calvinist argument on "effective" and "effecient" into the Arminian position - AS IF Arminians ever accepted the Calvinist definition.

In Christ,

Bob [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Uh, no, Bob, a circular argument is called begging the question, or arguing the premise.

You're the one the redefines the terminology. I have never before seen such a complete lack of historical perspective. The agreed upon definition of effective is exactly what the word means. :rolleyes:

If God draws all men to Himself effectively, you end up with universalism.

In your view God does not draw men to Himself, He woos them. That's a HUGE difference, Bob.
 

GeneMBridges

New Member
Wrong - the only thing that is needed to show Calvinism describes God as "unjust" is to show that the Bible has God claiming that "HE is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" and then to observe that Calvinism claims that in fact "God does nothing" to back that all inclusive claim up.
So, Bob, if that is true and people don't get a chance to believe then God is being unjust, because God wants this but if they don't hear there's no opportunity for them to be saved. If things are as you say then salvation is a matter of justice and not mercy. However, what makes mercy mercy is the fact that we don't deserve it. There's also another alternative. If what you say above is true, then God is unjust if He doesn't save everybody, since He desires all be saved.

Calvinism DESCRIBES Him as unjust. (At least 4 and 5 pt Calvinism does).

The Calvinist future scenario posted here exposes the unjust view of God painted by 4 and 5 point Calvinists.

The Arminian future scenario subjects the doctrines of grace in the Arminian model to that SAME test and SHOWS how it described God as loving and Merciful.

This is obvious.

And the question about God "being able" to reach the lost who have not had access to scripture - was answered in the previous post.
This is only so if the Arminian view is true. It is NOT obvious and its circular, because you must assume your view is true in order for your argument to be true.

You're entire reasoning process is just one huge non-sequitar. It turns on libertine free will, which is speculation and assumes that natural ability assumes moral ability. This is not taught in Scripture and must be brought to the text in order to justify the position. It assumes that words like any, all, and world are always universal terms. That is exegetically false. No satisfactory exegesis is ever offered. It requires you to end up believing in either dualism in the new birth or in a logically self-defeating self-causation, which is also false.

Calvinism does not describe God as unjust at all. All deserve condemnation and are in fact condemned. Some are redeemed others are not. Justice is satisfied at the cross. Redemption of the elect is an act of mercy. The rest get what they deserve, condemnation, and are allowed to continue to that end. This is passive, no corresponding postive act of reprobation is done by God, except in the hyperCalvinist model. Nothing is unjust, because justice is satisfied.

The Arminian view is VERY unjust. By grounding election in man and not Himself, God is playing favorites, because it makes faith a meritorious thing. It is also unjust because if it is something in us, you must answer the question of why someone believes and others do not. This gets you back to something about themselves or the quality of their intellect or faith. Since people all have different backgrounds and reasons for believing, that is injustice. Your view moves salvation from a matter of mercy to a matter of justice. By providing atonement for all and not offering it to all, that is unjust if God desires all men to be saved and does nothing about. Scripture also says that Jesus did what He did at exactly the right time. Well, if what you say is true, then you have made God into a liar, because there was no way of reaching people in Asia and the Americas after Jesus died and rose from the dead, after all, if all means all, then why not wait until a greater number of people could be reached with the gospel more quickly? It would make more sense to place the atonement in a much later century.
 

Paul33

New Member
Absolutely,

The fact remains. The Arminian system makes God to be the most cruel, most sadistic being in the universe! He sacrifices his Son on the cross so that all might be saved and also so that no one is without excuse. He requires that you hear the gospel so that you can respond, and then he doesn't give everyone the same opportunity to hear the gospel!

If you don't get an opportunity to hear the gospel, you are lost, and God can say that he is not responsible. He did everything that he could to save you from sin, and its man's fault for not witnessing. Blame it on free-will!

I can see why Clark Pinnock advocates that those who haven't heard will get a chance after they die! He needs to make God fair!

What I don't understand is how Bob can advocate that the Holy Spirit will directly intervene without sending a preacher (despite the Biblical record), so that those who haven't heard can have an opportunity. Does God do this for every person who hasn't heard? If he does, we should cease our missionary efforts immediately. After all, I'm sure the Holy Spirit can do a better job of witnessing than any of us.

If free-will and opportunity are the key words in the Arminian system of salvation, God is blowing it big time!
 
I

ILUVLIGHT

Guest
Hi Paul33;
The fact remains. The Arminian system makes God to be the most cruel, most sadistic being in the universe! He sacrifices his Son on the cross so that all might be saved and also so that no one is without excuse. He requires that you hear the gospel so that you can respond, and then he doesn't give everyone the same opportunity to hear the gospel!
I find this more true of Calvinism. Since Calvinism refuses to aknowledge that God is Love. They do this by suggesting that God's Love for man isn't His will. A direct contradiction of the Word. They insist that God makes man Love Him when no one, God or man can be made to Love. Since Love is an act of the will.
Calvinism denys man, the will to Love. Which, by the very fact that we are all commanded to Love God, implies that we have a CHOICE. Other wise why comand it?
May God Bless You With Light;
Mike
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Paul33:
Bob,

Romans 10 makes it abundantly clear that no one can believe unless they hear the gospel from a preacher, one sent to them to preach! Romans 10:14-17
Romans 10 argues from Psalms when it says "but surely they never heard did they?" and says that nature itself has instructed them regarding the facts needed to believe and be saved.

Romans makes the same point in chapter 1 about the attribtues of God "clearly seen".

In Heb 4:1-2 Paul goes even farther, saying about those SAME OT people "The gospel was preached to us JUST as it was to THEM also".

Romans 10:18-21 does not teach that the Holy Spirit preaches the gospel to those who haven't heard.

It teaches that Israel heard and disbelieved (Romans 10:18-19, 21). It teaches that God will reveal himself to those who weren't looking for him (Romans 10:20)! And how does God reveal himself to people who aren't looking for him? Through preachers who are sent to preach the Good News (Romans 10:15).
Romans 10
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
"THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."
19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,
"I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION,
BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU."
The voice that has gone out into all the earth is the voice of nature according to the quoted text of Psalms 19.

The full text is as follows

1 the heavens are telling
of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of his hands.
2 day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 there is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard.
4 their line has gone out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world. In them he has placed a tent for the sun,
5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 its rising is from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them; and there is nothing hidden from its heat.
This is in harmony with John 16 stating that the Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

And fits perfectly with Romans 2 stating that those without scripture SHOW the works of the law WRITTEN ON THE HEART - by the Holy Spirit by contrast to the rebellion of some of the jews.

I hope you aren't saying that God doesn't need preachers because he will sovereignly reveal himself to the lost. That would be God overruling man's free will to witness.
Actually it does neither.

God IS convicting the entire world - and is not limited to the power of man.

But in that context of fact - God STILL sends out preachers. God is not the God of "one chance only".

In Luke 12 we find that God takes into account the level of background information and each person actually has. They must ALL submit to the Holy Spirit and be born again - but they do not all "know the same story to its complete extent" in fact those without scripture at all (Romans 2) Do "instintively the things of the law" being led by the Spirit of God that "circumcises the heart" according to Romans 2 --- in contrast to those who choose to rebel against God.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Paul33:
Absolutely,

The fact remains. The Arminian system makes God to be the most cruel, most sadistic being in the universe! He sacrifices his Son on the cross so that all might be saved and also so that no one is without excuse. He requires that you hear the gospel so that you can respond, and then he doesn't give everyone the same opportunity to hear the gospel!

If you don't get an opportunity to hear the gospel, you are lost, and God can say that he is not responsible. He did everything that he could to save you from sin, and its man's fault for not witnessing. Blame it on free-will!
That is a wonderful circular argument pretending to embrace Arminianism. I "show" how the arminian position relies on scripture when it rejects your "nobody told you so you must die" model - and you pull your own Calvinist ideas in to oppose my Arminian position. THEN you claim above that YOUR Calvinist view is the real Arminian position and seek to show how it is cruel.

What a hoot!

See the REAL Arminian Scenario already spelled out on this very thread here --

CLICK

I Then show how the Calvinist view shows God to be a cruel monster using the same scenario --

CLICK AGAIN

I can see why you have to reject the actual points raised by Arminian posts here - to make your case against Arminianism - showing it to teach something that I do not believe --

In fact - the closer you model it to your view of Calvinism - the more successful you are at showing it to portray a cruel God.

Surely that has to frustrate you a little.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 21, 2004, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: Gina L ]
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by GeneMBridges:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Bob said --
Wrong - the only thing that is needed to show Calvinism describes God as "unjust" is to show that the Bible has God claiming that "HE is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" and then to observe that Calvinism claims that in fact "God does nothing" to back that all inclusive claim up.
So, Bob, if that is true and people don't get a chance to believe then God is being unjust, because God wants this but if they don't hear there's no opportunity for them to be saved.
</font>[/QUOTE]You have to ignore a lot of my recent posts to make that argument.

Why not address the points I am making specific to that argument?

The Arminian view is VERY unjust.
Review the Arminian scenario I posted above and make your case.

It is also unjust because if it is something in us, you must answer the question of why someone believes and others do not. This gets you back to something about themselves or the quality of their intellect or faith.
This gets us back to the "arbitrary selection" form of election that you promote in Matt 7 where the FEW are selected "without any consideration to the person" on a totally arbitrary basis - from among the many.

Arbitrary selection is exactly what is depicted in the Calvinist future scenario I posted above.

Think about it.

In Christ,

Bob
 

Bro. James

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am glad God is not Arminian--

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the face of the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and creeping thing, and fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."
Book of Genesis, Chapter 6, verses 5-8.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Eph. Ch.2.

Thus saith the Lord.

Selah,

Bro. James
 

Paul33

New Member
Bob,

I think you are saying that those who die never hearing the gospel but who haven't rejected the testimony of nature or the convicting power of the Holy Spirit are circumcised in their hearts and are therefore saved.

Is that what you are saying?

Secondly, my caricature of Arminianism was an attempt to help Arminians see that they do the same thing to Calvinists when they accuse us of having an unloving God. I think you were guilty of that yourself, weren't you, Bob?

But that still doesn't absolve either one of us from answering the age old problem of "What happens to those who die having never heard the Gospel?"

I have a solution:

God knows that:

All will be lost because of Adam's sin.
No one will be able to save himself.
God must provide a solution for man's sin problem.
Christ will be lifted up on the cross drawing all men to himself.
Some (potential persons in the mind of God) will resist the drawing of Christ.
The rest (potential persons in the mind of God)will be found in Christ through no merit of their own.
Those in Christ will be chosen by God.
Those not in Christ will be passed over.
God then decrees to create the universe!
The elect will hear the gospel message and respond in faith, having been born from above.
Others will hear the gospel message and harden their hearts.
Still others will never hear the gospel and be lost because they are not the elect and would not have responded in faith even if they had heard.

You may disagree with this, because I admit I am speculating on what took place in the mind of God. But one thing I know for sure. The lost are those who persist in their rejection of God.

What I do know from Scripture is that the elect are chosen according to foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:2) before the foundation of the world according to the kind intention (purpose) of God (Eph. 1).

[ November 09, 2004, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Paul33 ]
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Paul33:
Bob,

I think you are saying that those who die never hearing the gospel but who haven't rejected the testimony of nature or the convicting power of the Holy Spirit are circumcised in their hearts and are therefore saved.

Is that what you are saying?

Secondly, my caricature of Arminianism was an attempt to help Arminians see that they do the same thing to Calvinists when they accuse us of having an unloving God. I think you were guilty of that yourself, weren't you, Bob?
A. I show in the Calvinist vs Arminian future scenarios exactly how God is made to appear in both views. The contrast is glaring.

See the REAL Arminian Scenario already spelled out on this very thread here --

web page

I Then show how the Calvinist view shows God to be a cruel monster using the same scenario --

web page
B. I claim that God the Holy Spirit IS "Convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" and that God really iis NOT willing that any should perish - to the point of highlighting the extreme examples of Romans 2 and Romans 10 where the Holy Spirit works in the New Covenant New Birth in those who do not have scripture - as they accept and yield to His John 3 influence.

Instead of an arbitrary God who simply says "yes but your story was not good enough to be saved" as you suppose He says.

Paul33 said --
But that still doesn't absolve either one of us from answering the age old problem of "What happens to those who die having never heard the Gospel?"
How in the world can you say that - when I am pointing out the solution to that in my statements on Romans 2 and Romans 10?

I don't get it.

Here is the part where we agree --

All will be lost because of Adam's sin.
No one will be able to save himself.
God must provide a solution for man's sin problem.
Christ will be lifted up on the cross drawing all men to himself.
Some (potential persons in the mind of God) will resist the drawing of Christ.
The rest (potential persons in the mind of God)will be found in Christ through no merit of their own.
Those in Christ will be chosen by God.
In fact - God "so loves the WORLD that He chooses to Give His Son" from before the foundations of the world.

In your view - those who do not have access to the Gospel as it is in scripture - those who only have nature and the Holy Spirit - are not elect.

Romans 2 and 10 do not support that idea.

God knows (Foreknows) who will be saved and who will be lost. But His statement to the lost is found in scripture as "AS I live says the Lord I have NO pleasure in the death of anyone". It is found in His own statement "OH WHY will you die? Turn to ME and LIVE!" it is found in His statement "LISTEN TO ME EVERYONE who thirsts COME ". It is found in His universal call "COME TO Me ALL who are weary and burdened by sin".

He gives His life "For the World" because He "so LOVES the World" and is not willing that ANY should perish.

This has no element of "I passed over you so you are lost".

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 21, 2004, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: Gina L ]
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Bro. James:
I am glad God is not Arminian--

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the face of the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and creeping thing, and fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."
Book of Genesis, Chapter 6, verses 5-8.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Eph. Ch.2.

Thus saith the Lord.

Selah,

Bro. James
How is that not Arminian?

If God were Calvinist it would have included the salient points of 5pt calvinism as in the following


And God sovereignly ordained that all mankind would be wicked. But God cared for Noah while not caring at all for the rest of mankind and in fact being perfectly happy to see them be born and then be destroyed for all eternity in the fires of hell. Having made His arbitrary selection of Noah - who was just as fully wicked and rebellious as the rest of mankind, God caused Noah to choose faith in Him and to build an ark".
I am glad God is not a 5 pt Calvinist.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Well there you have it.

3 Pt Calvinists are hard for an Arminian to debate with. We keep falling into the trap of agreeing with them on key points.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
I agree with 4 Pt Calvinists who say they findn fault with the 5 pt Calvinists in that the 5-pointers have a good case for OSAS but not a good case for assurance - since salvation is retro-deleted when you are found not to persevere 10 years from now.

I agree with 5 Pt Calvinists when they complain about 4-pointers having to ignore all the scriptures that speak to the subject of perseverance of the saints being an aboslute non-negotiable result of the Gospel in a person's life.

And I agree with both of them when they complain that Arminians have no basis for arguing OSAS from the standpoint of no free-will no-choice after becoming saved.

So "yes" I do agree with those guys on "Some" Things.

In Christ,

Bob
 

corinne

New Member
Originally posted by Paul33:
Since Arminians believe that God foreknows who will respond to the gospel message and elects them on that basis, the God of the Arminians must be cruel, arbitrary, unfair, and unjust.

It is my understanding that Arminians revolt against predestination absolute and that God elects. It is Calvin's God which is usually seen as a tyrant and an executioner!

Arminius thought that God wishes to make all believers in Christ who persisted in their belief to the end blessed in Christ, and for His sake would only condemn the unconverted and unbelieving. He condemned the doctrine of election according to which the chosen are counted as necessarily and unavoidably blessed and the outcasts necessarily and unavoidably lost. He urged the milder doctrine that Christ has died for all men, and that believers were only chosen in so far as they enjoyed he forgiveness of sins.

It is considerably less cruel than Calvinism.

Corinne
 

corinne

New Member
Originally posted by Paul33:
No, I agree with you. Every person is without excuse before God. We have seen the created world and that alone is enough to leave man without excuse before God.

But the Arminian says that in order for God to be fair, every person must have an opportunity to hear the gospel so that they can accept and reject. After all, every person has a free will.

So, I am making the point that in the Arminian system, God is cruel because he doesn't give every person an opportunity to hear the gospel. By their own words this must make God cruel, arbitrary, unfair and unjust.

If just one person seeks out what is inside of him, as you say, and does not hear the gospel, the Arminian God is unfair and arbitrary.

So now, man must seek out what is inside of him, in order to be saved. So if man doesn't seek out what is inside of him, God is not obligated to present the gospel message to that person? Is that what you are saying? That's what it sounds like you are saying.

So God knows who is going to respond in faith and is only obligated to present the gospel to them. The rest don't need the gospel, because God already knows they are going to reject. Well how fair is that? In order to exercise my free will fairly, I must be givin the opportunity to hear a clear presentation of the gospel. Anything less in practice violates my "free will."
aren't you confusing Arminianism and Calvinism? The elect people of Calvin have no free will, God has already decided for them.

Corinne
 
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