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Arminian Grace

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, May 25, 2011.

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  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    The song accurately describes the beliefs of these no-namers.

    They believe they have some goodness inside them which enabled them to choose to not be blind any more.

    That is exactly what these unidentifiable people believe.
     
    #41 Luke2427, May 26, 2011
  2. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Your ability to drive by post with a clear conscience, to attack from a distance, to mount your high horse and assault ONLY the reformed members on this board as bad people never ceases to amaze me.

    Of course according to one member Reformers are "fools".

    If he can get away with that kind of baloney then I suppose it is no surprise that you can do this on here with a clear conscience.
     
    #42 Luke2427, May 26, 2011
  3. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    So you think there were only Catholics? Really?
    Early church and on up to the corrupt Roman, during it and even after it?

    Not hardly. You look for a name to establish your view as being supreme and true, yet the names given to theological views were done so to demoralize and demean those of a different view. In fact, the labels came about mostly due to and because of those in the reformed view gave the labels to keep their own and others from looking into it. They applied the name of person to the view to make it more hated since it gives the 'appearance' of following man and not scripture. Thus those of the reformed view had it cast back in their teeth by having their own view titled with a man's name (Calvinism).

    This is why some quote Paul when addressing some peoples theology, in reference to following after the position of a man and not God. Some are of Paul and others are of Apollos (even heard the reformed saying .. our doctrine in Pauline :) ) You seek to grand stand in having a name devoted to your theology but actually it makes your view only equal others such as Pelagain and Arminianism. A name does not give theology anything, it merely aids in understanding what one 'potentially' holds to.

    *sigh.. you seriously need check up from the heart, up.
     
    #43 Allan, May 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2011
  4. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You've probably never heard of these but they are called CREEDS. They identify what the truly Christian church has believed since her infancy.

    Here is the first one written within fifty years of the last writing of the New Testament:

    The Apostle's Creed

    I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
    the Maker of heaven and earth,
    and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

    Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
    born of the virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, dead, and buried;

    He descended into hell. [See Calvin]

    The third day He arose again from the dead;

    He ascended into heaven,
    and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
    from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

    I believe in the Holy Ghost;
    the holy catholic church;
    the communion of saints;
    the forgiveness of sins;
    the resurrection of the body;
    and the life everlasting.

    Amen.

    Here is another:

    The Nicene Creed

    I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

    Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

    And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

    And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

    Here is another:

    The Athanasian Creed

    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

    2. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

    3. Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance

    4. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Spirit.

    5. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.

    6. Such as the Father is, such is the Son and such is the Holy Spirit.

    7. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

    8. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

    9. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

    10. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.

    11. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensibles, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

    12. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty;

    13. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

    14. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

    15. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

    16. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

    17. And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.

    18. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord;

    19. so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say: There are three Gods or three Lords.

    20. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

    21. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

    22. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

    23. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

    24. And in this Trinity none is afore, nor after another; none is greater, or less than another.

    25. But the whole three persons are co-eternal, and co-equal.

    26. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

    27. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

    28. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    29. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

    30. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and made of the substance of His mother, born in the world.

    31. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

    32. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

    33. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

    34. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the manhood into God.

    35. One altogether, not by the confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

    36. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

    37. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

    38. He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty;

    39. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

    40. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

    41. And shall give account of their own works.

    42. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

    43. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.

    Catholic means "universal". So yes the true church was and IS catholic to this day.

    But since there were no denomination all Christians were ONLY catholic until the reformation.

    Glad I could enlighten you.
     
    #44 Luke2427, May 26, 2011
  5. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    To any MODS it may concern- is Allan going to get a warning for this or do just Reformed members plus webdog get warnings?
     
    #45 Luke2427, May 26, 2011
  6. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Wow.. for someone who claims to be educated you stand in great ignorance!

    Not all churches held to the same views. While there was a conformity of main points (ie. the Apostles Creed) there was still variations of views.

    You stand under the delusion that all churches held to one view and all held to the same understandings. Historically wrong. There were even church during the writing of the Apostles Creed that did not agree with all of it. That was the reason they set it forth.

    And yes, the term Catholic referred to them in general as a spiritual body, not a denomination nor that all hold to a particular theological abstract... YET there were theological differences in their views.
     
    #46 Allan, May 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2011
  7. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Warning? For what.. stating a fact that you have great animosity if not a 'seeming' hatred for those believe different than yo. You spill your vile contempt, your ad-homs, and vitriol accusations and then have the audacity to ask if I am going to get a warning

    The comment refers to your attitude toward your brethren.
    Granted I admit I get riled and come back with much the same force as is given.. that is a weakness of mine, and I admit it. But to me, it is a shame that your name does not carry with it the knowledge of being known for being loving and gracious and only at time offensive and caustic.
     
    #47 Allan, May 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2011
  8. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You asked this question indicating that you do not understand church history...

    ...I answered it with the above.

    Then you change your story.
     
    #48 Luke2427, May 26, 2011
  9. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Are you allowed to question the HEART condition of fellow members, Allan?

    Wait a minute- YOU probably are.
     
    #49 Luke2427, May 26, 2011
  10. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    WOw.. your tap dancing has improved. Still poor, but at least improved :)
     
    #50 Allan, May 26, 2011
  11. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Yes I can your heart's condition in relation to your attitude.. I just am not permitted to question your salvation.
     
    #51 Allan, May 26, 2011
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    That is the ESSENCE of what you are doing in this very post.
     
    #52 Luke2427, May 26, 2011
  13. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Hmmm, Luke screamed at me yesterday and also implied that I am not a 'real' Christian.

    He accused me and others of not knowing church history and when I supplied him with information on church history he did not like he was very indigent ... it was when I showed him with a direct line of quotes from the Gnostics, repeated by Augustine and then by Calvin that he was upset. I intend to start a thread on this when I have time ... probably in July when I am at home in the States and have more time.

    Also I am thinking through an idea on how Armenians and and the Calvin position on predestination can be tied together comfortably. But I do not have time to go into that just now.

    Also, I have noted how he refuses to answer uncomfortable questions ... and not so uncomfortable questions. He challenged me yesterday with a question saying he would not answer my question until I had answered his. I answered his question but am still waiting for his answer. Oh well ......... And then there is the next accusation he likes to make about others being uneducated. Again, oh well .......... :laugh:

    There is no real discussion ... you must agree with him or you are lost, ignorant and a menace to all of civilization. Hmmmm, yes I am being a bit sarcastic here.

    Blessings.
     
    #53 Crabtownboy, May 26, 2011
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I said:
    There were only catholics Allan.

    You retorted:

    You thus proved that you do not know much about church history.

    So again. Before the Refomation- THERE WERE ONLY CATHOLICS ALLAN.

    Would like to dance around some more?

    And you commended someone for having NO NAME for their theology saying that such a thing is JUST A FAD.

    So do you now strip yourself of your title BAPTIST since it is just a fad not even as old as the one you mock?
     
    #54 Luke2427, May 26, 2011
  15. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I did not scream at you nor say you were not a real Christian but the rest of this is pretty accurate.

    The reason is that Arminianism and especially this new nameless theology you guys espouse goes hand in hand with a lack of real theological, historical training.

    So yes, the honest and blunt Calvinist is going to say the same things about MOST of you guys- and he is going to be proven right time and time again.
     
    #55 Luke2427, May 26, 2011
  16. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    LOL.. as before you can't even keep track of your own comments and look even more unlearned than before. Yes.. lets go back and look at your previous statement in full to get a better understanding of the context and not your one liner made to hopefully tap dance you out of your predicament.
    I stated there was no names given to the prior theological views till approx 1500's. Though there were various theological views they didn't have labels till later on.
    However you stated to this:
    So your own statement was that there was only ONE CHURCH, and ONE theology throughout church history, till the reformation that is, and that view was Catholic.

    Now should I REALLY take the time to post to you all the different kinds of churches and their various theological views throughout church history, once again proving the position you contend for is untrue.

    Oh wait.. that's right, you started tap dancing after this to try to change what you said cause you messed up royally and tried to make turn your statement from only ONE CHURCH and One theology and that being Catholic... to using the term in a general way meaning a general spiritual body regarding believers.. yet that still didn't explain your "One theology" point.. Which as I said, your dancing is getting better, still poor, but getting better.

    And of course lastly, which you try once again to redeem yourself and turn the conversation from having a named systematized theology as making ones views superior and truth, to now asking if I should do away with the term Baptist which has nothing to with conversation at hand. You are comparing apples and bikes.
    The fad in question is that having a named theolgoical system of view automatically makes ones view superior or right or true over a system that isn't named after a man that set it forth for better understanding. (not that he actually began the view)
     
    #56 Allan, May 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2011
  17. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I said they were all catholics. You questioned that as if it were up for debate.

    There WERE various takes on views WITHIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH but they had no need for labels because they were all CATHOLIC. Catholic WAS THE LABEL.

    Got it yet????

    But YES. Please do take the time to post to me all the different kinds of churches and their various theological views throughout church history.





    IT IS A LABEL Allan. Is it a good thing or not. You said it wasn't. There were no such labels for the first 1500 years. This is your argument.

    But you hold on to the title BAPTIST which is a FAD newer than Calvinism and Arminianism.

    You want to say "YOU GO GIRL" for her not having any identifiable theology and then hold TIGHTLY to the title Baptist which undermines your cheer leading.
     
    #57 Luke2427, May 26, 2011
  18. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Your statement was. You said ONE CHURCH, and ONE theology.

    AH.. so now your back-peddling and recanting your prior statement there was only ONE theology.. and stating, as I have said, various views and thus not ONE theology. Good for you.. your learning!

    BTW - it wasn't a label.. it was a declaration regarding the spiritual body of all believers. The universal Church being under the headship of Christ, not that all the churches were called Catholic.

    Apparently I don't have to as you are recanting your own statements as you find them to be inaccurate. You're getting there, slowly but surely. :1_grouphug:
    I never made the statement a label wasn't a good thing.

    My argument was there are no labels for systems of theological thought prior to that time period.

    No, churches have had names from the inception of the church.
    What our discussion regards is your assumption that having a system of theology that has a name to it somehow trumps, makes superior, or true one view over another.

    This simply shows your inability to keep up the context of our discussion without running all over the place looking for deflections. Stay within the confines of what we are discussion. The conversation has nothing to do with titles in general and that again, is your deflection tactic.
     
    #58 Allan, May 26, 2011
  19. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    My friend, when you use large type it is considered screaming ... i.e. used to be called flaming.

    It is not nameless as you like to say. That is simply your way of giving a left-handed insult. It is neither polite not intellectually honest. As time goes Calvinism is new as no one had heard of Calvinism until after Calvin.

    Then do not whine when you are challenged.

    Also, please, now, answer my question. Thanks in advance.

    Concerning the word Catholic ... I believe your understanding is much too narrow. The church in Istanbul never called itself Catholic and it was the leading church for a long time and still is in some parts of the world. I do not have time to go into the theology of why Istanbul and Rome split, but you can read up on this on your own. Obviously there were differences.

    The word catholic:


    From Dictionary.com
     
    #59 Crabtownboy, May 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2011
  20. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    No I am not back peddling like you have been doing this whole conversation.

    Listen to it again and see if you can get it this time.

    ALL THOSE VIEWS WERE CATHOLIC.

    You got it yet, Allan?

    They did not need labels.

    Label: 2.
    a short word or phrase descriptive of a person, group, intellectual movement, etc.

    That is what the word "catholic" does. But thanks for playing.


    You commended her for having no nameable theology saying that labeling theology is a new fad. Labeling denominations is a new fad too.

    So I take it you will remove the label "Baptist" from your church sign tomorrow so that you may be consistent, right?

    As there were no Baptists prior to that time period.

    So you will need some paint thinner, a scraper...

    The label "Baptist" is new fad no different than the label "Calvinist".

    Nice try though. But I must say your tap dancing skills are not that striking.


    No. But having a name at least makes it identifiable amidst the thousands of different belief systems out there today.

    That's why we call ourselves... wait for it... .... Baptists.
     
    #60 Luke2427, May 26, 2011
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