Arminian Myths

[preachinjesus]

Easy believism = Non-Lordship salvation.

Well I don't buy Lordship Salvation to begin with, but funny how that belief never permeated the doctrinal heritage of the Church until recently. Regardless you are both overstating your case and using a logical fallacy. In attempting a reductio absurdem argument you have actually engaged in three seperate fallacies:
post hoc fallacy - just because one thing is one way it is held to cause the other
creating a false dilemma - forcing two choices when in reality there are more choices (specifically how you think it's Calvinism or Arminism when there are more options)
Hasty Generalization - forcing a view onto a group without fully exploring the entirety of the group

You're forcing your argument one way and not creating coherent line of thought. Calvin isn't God. Demonizing people who disagree isn't awfully Christian either btw.

Also, I didn't misrepresent lifestyle evangelism. That is lifestyle evangelism taken to its logical conclusion. If I didn't build the bridge, the Gospel would lose credibility. Or else, why build the bridge in the first place if it's not making the Gospel more effective?

Yes you did misrepresent it. You have no clue what it is. By adding this little line of "taken to its logical conclusion" doesn't validate your ill-informed accusation. Rather it is along the same lines as saying:

Calvinism, taken to its logical conclusion, leads to no need for evangelization since the saved are already justified and have no need for any evangelization.

That's a foolish statement, and exactly on par with what you're saying about lifestyle evangelism. The fact is Jesus is all over being a light and salt to people and finding opportunities to tell them the good news of the Gospel. His whole ministry is dedicated to this and much of His teachings.

Here's the dealyo-diddyo, however you do evangelism is fine with me (please don't force a catch all on me here) so long as you're doing evangelism. But don't for a second think you've got a corner on the market of how I can connect someone to Christ because you haven't seen it all work. Doesn't matter if you're 18 or 81, there are more ways to connect people with the truth of the Gospel than gettting in their grill and handing them some silly four spiritual laws presentation thinking you've cover all the bases.

Think about CS Lewis, or Augustine for that matter, both were brought to the truth of the Gospel by lives and active Lifestyle Evangelism of those who loved them. Both found Christ through seeing the TRUTH of Christ lived through others and then asking about the source of that truth.

Seriously start reading some more and getting some more experience in this whole Christianity. We have really big tent full of cool people who are doing lots of cool things. Plug in with them and expand your horizon. God is a whole lot bigger than we often make Him.

 

[John of Japan]

I know LE advocates believe in an "EVENTUAL" presentation of the Gospel. And that is just the problem. If God teaches that through preaching people are saved, and through the hearing of the Word God gives faith, why would we occupy ourselves in trying to build 'bridges' to share the faith? We plant the seed, we move on. If there is interest, we water the seed. It's rather simple.

I said in the other thread that very, very few people trust God as Savior the first time they hear the Gospel. Therefore continued contact is often necessary. I've done informal surveys in churches on this. You ignored that. And you still haven't answered about 1 Peter 3:1-2, as you've been asked to 3 or 4 times. Are you afraid to interpret the Word of God?

You say, "If there is interest, we water the seed." That, to me, is lifestyle evangelism. Prove it is not. Give me quotes from LE advocates. Perhaps the difference here is that you might just sprinkle the seed once or twice and then move on. That is shallow evangelism. Unfortunately it is all too common in IFB circles (and I have been one all my life, so I should know).

3) They could be inconsistent Calvinists or consistent free-willers, I have no idea. Either way, they are not biblical.

Tell you what, here's a famous Calvinist theologian who says exactly what I mean by lifestyle evangelism (though I disagree with him on other issues, obviously). See if you agree with him. If you do, then you are obviously mistaken that lifestyle evangelism comes from Arminian theology.

"What you have to do is to take time with him, to make friends with him, to get alongside him, to find out where he is in terms of spiritual understanding, and to start dealing with him at that point. You have to explain the gospel to him, and be sure that he understands it and is convinced of its truth, before you start pressing him to an active response. you have to be ready to help him, if need be, through a spell of seeking to repent and believe before he knows within himself that he has received Christ, and Christ has received him. At each stage you have to be willing to go along with him at God's speed, which may seem to you a strangely slow speed. But that is God's business, not yours. Your business is simply to keep pace with what God is doing in his life. Your willingness to be patient with him in this way is the proof of your love to him no less than of your faith in God. If you are not willing thus to be patient, you need not expect that God will favor you by enabling you to win souls" (Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God, by J. I. Paker, pp. 120-121).

Oh, no! (Gasp!) A Calvinist who actually practices lifestyle evangelism and even calls it winning souls! What is the world coming to!

 

[Amy.G]

I love your posts, John.

I think of you every time I go to Murfreesboro and see John Rice Pkwy.

:thumbs:

 

[John of Japan]

I love your posts, John.

I think of you every time I go to Murfreesboro and see John Rice Pkwy.

:thumbs:

Thankee kindly. :wavey:

 

[Amy.G]

Thankee kindly. :wavey:

Thou art most welcome.

Just curious, what time is it in Japan? It's 8:40 pm here.

Edit:
:laugh: I read your post wrong. I thought it said thank "ye" kindly. That's why I responded in Elizabethan! My bad!

 

[Rippon]

JoJ : So you are a Packerite ! That is a fine quote from J.I. I'm in agreement . And I have said before that I believe in the notion of winning souls too .

 

[tinytim]

OH no... a Calvinist with an Arminian disease!!!

RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Pipedude]

Ive not seen an arminian on the board. Anyone care to fess up to this?

First you have to define "Arminian." Technically it means one who believes in General Redemption instead of the Calvinist doctrine of Particular Redemption.

And since all noncalvinists believe in General Redemption, that means that the Calvinists are technically correct when they call them "Arminians," just as you'd be technically correct to refer to your Asian boss as "that Mongoloid guy I work for."

But really, christianyouth, it isn't hard to create a chain of evidence to prove that all problems in modern Christianity stem from folks failing to believe as I do. I exercised myself in that discipline for thirty years or more.

Eventually I found out that people are just intrinsically goofy and aberrations are going to occur no matter what system they adhere to. I've found both saints and idiots in every camp.

 

[tinytim]

Eventually I found out that people are just intrinsically goofy and aberrations are going to occur no matter what system they adhere to. I've found both saints and idiots in every camp.

Did someone say Goofy?

I resemble that remark!

 

[John of Japan]

Thou art most welcome.

Just curious, what time is it in Japan? It's 8:40 pm here.

Well, since I had to run off and work this morning I'm not sure! But we are generally 12 hours ahead of you.

Edit:
:laugh: I read your post wrong. I thought it said thank "ye" kindly. That's why I responded in Elizabethan! My bad!

I think I was talking in late 19th century southern US, or maybe late 18th century pirate talk, I'm not sure.

 

[John of Japan]

JoJ : So you are a Packerite ! That is a fine quote from J.I. I'm in agreement . And I have said before that I believe in the notion of winning souls too .

Amen! Packer writes well and is generally pretty good. But we need to be careful, Brother, we've been agreeing too much lately!

 

[John of Japan]

Did someone say Goofy?

I resemble that remark!

I do note that Goofy wears glasses but you don't! Otherwise, the resemblence....

 

[John of Japan]

3) They could be inconsistent Calvinists or consistent free-willers, I have no idea. Either way, they are not biblical.

You know what, I'm going to call you on this. Have you read these books? If not, how do you know they are unbiblical? There are several different versions of lifestyle evangelism. How do you know you don't agree with the three books I mentioned?

 

[David Lamb]

I know LE advocates believe in an "EVENTUAL" presentation of the Gospel. And that is just the problem. If God teaches that through preaching people are saved, and through the hearing of the Word God gives faith, why would we occupy ourselves in trying to build 'bridges' to share the faith? We plant the seed, we move on. If there is interest, we water the seed. It's rather simple.

I am wondering if there is a specific type of evangelism called "Lifestyle Evangelism" (capital L and capital E) that you are writing against, or are you saying that it doesn't matter how a Christian lives his life, so long as he is spreading the gospel? If the first is true, then I would agree with you, if its proponents are actually saying that lifestyle can or should replace preaching and personal witness. If the second, I cannot agree. Surely our lifestyle must "fit" with what we proclaim by preaching and witness, otherwise we are hypocrites.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

I am wondering if there is a specific type of evangelism called "Lifestyle Evangelism" (capital L and capital E) that you are writing against, or are you saying that it doesn't matter how a Christian lives his life, so long as he is spreading the gospel? If the first is true, then I would agree with you, if its proponents are actually saying that lifestyle can or should replace preaching and personal witness. If the second, I cannot agree. Surely our lifestyle must "fit" with what we proclaim by preaching and witness, otherwise we are hypocrites.

Great Post David - I agree with you.

 

[JustChristian]

Easy believism = Non-Lordship salvation. Do Arminians hold to Lordship Salvation? Very few. To hold to Lordship Salvation and be Arminian is to advocate a work based salvation. I think we can agree on that much.



Also, I didn't misrepresent lifestyle evangelism. That is lifestyle evangelism taken to its logical conclusion. If I didn't build the bridge, the Gospel would lose credibility. Or else, why build the bridge in the first place if it's not making the Gospel more effective?

No, we can't agree that Lordship salvation and free will lead to a works based salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith and is available to all that accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. But "Ye must be born again" as Jesus told Nicodemus. Jesus must be the Lord of your life. The rich young ruler exercised his free will and rejected the offer of salvation because he loved his money more than he loved Christ. Is this works based salvation? No, it's simply making Christ the Master of your life. The Bible says that you cannot serve two masters. Choose Christ and you choose life. Choose the world and you choose eternal damnation. What did Calvin have to say about this?

 

[John of Japan]

christianyouth, you haven't posted in the thread you started since the 12th. You haven't answered the questions put to you on the previous lifestyle evangelism thread and now on the one you started. I'm disappointed.

christianyouth, learn to have the courage of your convictions. Learn to stand up for what you believe. Learn to stick around and discuss things maturely when you start a thread. You'll gain respect on the BB and you'll grow intellectually and maybe spiritually. As long as you run like this, though, forget it!

 

[tinytim]

I am wondering if there is a specific type of evangelism called "Lifestyle Evangelism" (capital L and capital E) that you are writing against, or are you saying that it doesn't matter how a Christian lives his life, so long as he is spreading the gospel? If the first is true, then I would agree with you, if its proponents are actually saying that lifestyle can or should replace preaching and personal witness. If the second, I cannot agree. Surely our lifestyle must "fit" with what we proclaim by preaching and witness, otherwise we are hypocrites.

Good point...

 

[christianyouth]

christianyouth, you haven't posted in the thread you started since the 12th. You haven't answered the questions put to you on the previous lifestyle evangelism thread and now on the one you started. I'm disappointed.

christianyouth, learn to have the courage of your convictions. Learn to stand up for what you believe. Learn to stick around and discuss things maturely when you start a thread. You'll gain respect on the BB and you'll grow intellectually and maybe spiritually. As long as you run like this, though, forget it!

JoJ, Germany lost WW2 because they were fighting wars on too many fronts. It's the same thing with me. My posts have been haphazardly put together, havn't had time to research facts and the like, and I have been debating in atleast three threads, not able to give sufficient time to either of them. I see no point to continue with the debating, since I already know each of these issues will come down to Calvinism v Arminianism.

Let me pose this question : Does how I live my life have any affect upon God's bringing his elect to saving faith? Is peoples salvation contingent upon how I exemplify Christ?

Now, let's watch were this goes. :thumbs:


In answer to your question about the verse, that verse can be interpreted two ways.

1) The wifes godly conduct somehow impacts his decision to convert
or
2) The wife is able to share the Gospel with him.
I don't really know which way to interpret it. The verse seems to be saying #1, but that would go against my understanding of regeneration, that is people are dead in sins, then quickened when exposed to Gospel preaching.

JoJ, it really is not an issue of backing out of something I started. I am just seeing that this is going to, absolutley will, come down to an issue in theology. It is the same with Church Growth methodology, or easy believism. I've seen those threads, and I've seen articles on them, and I know that it always comes down to a Calvinist v Non-Calvinist battle.

 

[christianyouth]

I am wondering if there is a specific type of evangelism called "Lifestyle Evangelism" (capital L and capital E) that you are writing against, or are you saying that it doesn't matter how a Christian lives his life, so long as he is spreading the gospel? If the first is true, then I would agree with you, if its proponents are actually saying that lifestyle can or should replace preaching and personal witness. If the second, I cannot agree. Surely our lifestyle must "fit" with what we proclaim by preaching and witness, otherwise we are hypocrites.

I am not writing against a specific version of LE. I have not read any of the books JoJ has listed, but I am writing against the concept of LE in general. If you read the other threads, you should get a reason why I am so avidly against this, as well as a description of what LE is. By no means did I do an exhaustive study, but I have listened to this descrbied and have enough exposure to the evangelical community to know that this is the predominant view among Christians and to also know that it is by nature, a Non-Calvinist concoction.