Arminian Theology

[BobRyan]

Helen
Ken, you can choose to jump out of an airplane, but you cannot choose to undo that jump once you are falling!

A very good illustration - but instead of using that type of illustration Christ "chooses" the following

Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked"

Matt 13 "The Sower and 4 kinds of ground" - The thorny and rocky ground show "Life" brought to the Seed - and then it dies. Not a possible sequence for the "totally depraved" to manufacture.

The "illustrations" are never of the form" once a man falls off a cliff - it is impossible for him to unfall". The illustrations of that type were available - but it is the opposite set of illustrations that we actually see Christ using.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Having seen the 5 points of Arminianism - lets look at the problems they solve.

#1. There is no "Why certainly I Could have done Something for your precious child IF I had CARED to!" scenario. INSTEAD all parents can know that God as the ULTIMATE loving parent has done ALL to save your child - YET has chosen to grant them free will CAPABLE of choosing the Gospel or choosing against it.

#2. There is no "I probably don't love you - and even IF I do love you - I probably don't love your family members" scenario where the "FEW" Of Matt 7 are the only ones God loves.

#3. There is no "I saved just a few and then called THAT So Loving the World - just because I Can" - scenario.

#4. There is no "IF you ever fail to Perservere at some year in the future - then today's Assurance of the born again condition is retro-deleted".

And to be sure these are some of the annoying little questions that surface as soon as you drop the Arminian model.

But the biggest problem it solves - is the 6,000 year problem.

#5 There is no "We are continuing on beyond Adam's fall to have an additional 6000 years of human misery and suffering as a pointless exercise - just because we Can".

Instead we have a "Free Will" system where God "motivates" via "Full disclosure and compelling evidence" instead of merely exaulting an "arbitrary will and power". In that system the "judgment" consists NOT of "God on a thrown of abritrary selection and ultimate power" - but instead it is the God of infinite power and wisdome sovereignly choosing to include "myriads and myriads in the courtroom" where "Books are opened" and the "judgment" takes place (Daniel 7) based on evidence recorded for all to see.

IT is a system where God is "revealed" in His actions and "shown" to actually be "Holy Just and True" based on what He does and the interactions with mankind Rev 19:1-3.

A system where Angels and men can look and see how God is proven to be loving, right, merciful and just - not merely "arbitrary".

The Sin experiment becomes the "Safeguard" of a thinking "choosing" eternity of beings who witness and benefit from the painful events of humanity in sin and suffering - having chosen the fall. The universal implication and scope of "Thought" and "Choice" and "motivation via Proof" is opened once the Arminian model is accepted.

IN christ,

Bob

[ October 21, 2002, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[Yelsew]

If you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, The Messiah, the third person of the Triune Godhead, then you are compelled to believe that His words are the word of God! If you do not so believe, then there is no way that you will accept His words as those of God. An act of the free will!

Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on him, should not perish but have everlasting life". God gave us the ability to choose for ourselves.

Thus is we have free will. It is by our free will that we accept the word of God and believe in Jesus, even on his name, that we receive eternal life (Salvation). If that were not true, then all who are lost would have been saved by Jesus, for he came to seek and to save that which was lost. Note, He did not say that he came to force the issue, but to give us all a way whereby we may be saved.

It is within our free will that we come to believe and thereby accept Jesus as our savior. It too is within our free will that we confess and repent of our sins thus enabling us to receive the regeneration brought by forgiveness. It is also through human free will that God and all that is of God can be rejected by an individual. God freely and individually allows us to choose our destiny.

But it is appointed unto man once to die then the Judgment. Those whose name has not been blotted from the Lamb's book of life are saved to eternal life. Those whose names cannot be found in that book are cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. "Choose you this day..." "For now is the appointed time, now is the hour of your salvation."

[ October 20, 2002, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

[Abiyah]

Wesley --

I am still vascillating between Calvinism and
Arminianism, leaning heavily toward Ccalvinism.
So far, I cannot accept all of eiither and I need
some box in between.

I do not believe that believers never sin, as those
who are holiness Aarminians teach. I have seen
the very ones who teach this show me a differ-
ent life than what they say with their mouths.

Nor do I believe that people are born sinning as
Calvinism teaches. I also cannot believe that
a person who is truly saved continues in deli-
berate sin as Calvinism teaches.

This whole thing is very new to me, and I am
very ignorant of all the implications, but I do
believe our God will lead those who want the
truth into Ttruth, and that that Truth does not
necessarily fit so neatly in some box marked
"Arminianism" or "Ccalvinism."

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Abiyah:
Nor do I believe that people are born sinning as Calvinism teaches.

Calvinism teaches that men are born sinners.

I also cannot believe that a person who is truly saved continues in deliberate sin as Calvinism teaches.

Calvinism doesn't teach this, unless I misunderstand you. People who continue in deliberate sin give evidence that they have not been saved. Perhpas you have this point confused with arminianism, many of whom do teach something like this since they deny the perseverance of the saints.

 

[Yelsew]

I am still vascillating between Calvinism and Arminianism, leaning heavily toward Ccalvinism.
So far, I cannot accept all of eiither and I need
some box in between.

Why in heavens name would you want to be identified as anything but Christian, unhyphenated Christian? That is, Calvinist-Christian, Wesleyan-Christian, Orthodox-Christian, Baptist-Christian, Methodist-Christian, Catholic-Christian, etc., are examples of hyphenated Christians. These divisions also dictate to the adherents how they are to view and worship God. AVOID THEM, they are full of strife. Be an unhyphenated Christian so that you can view and worship God as the Holy Spirit leads you, unconstrained by religiosity.

No such divisions exist in the Bride of Christ. There are no divisional separations in heaven that are identified by the hyphenated name you go by here on earth.

You will be identified as either a Believer in Christ or an Unbeliever before the Judgment throne of God. God will not ask you your affiliation with his "Body of Christ" on earth.

Why not set the theologies of men who are like you and I aside and trust exclusively in Jesus? He has never steered anyone wrong.

Obviously, as seen on this BBS, there are divisions and strife among the brethren about how to believe. Well, that brings no honor to God, and devalues our Justification bought by Jesus.

 

[Yelsew]

Ray Berrian,
Free will is not limited to things religious. Free will can find expression in what ever it is one believes.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Yelsew,

I agree with your post. We make decisions everyday which is an expression of our 'free will.' When we are obedient to God it is an act of our will. If we disobey it is also an act of our will. If we wilfully sin it sure was not ordained by the Triune Godhead. Has anyone ever heard of that ' . . . great dragon . . . . that old serpent . . . . the Devil . . . . Satan.'? [Revelation 12:9]. He is the one who tempts Christians to sin against God.

On the secular side--tomorrow I have to get some gas for my car. This is also an act of the free will.

 

[BobRyan]

Abiyah
I do not believe that believers never sin, as those
who are holiness Aarminians teach. I have seen
the very ones who teach this show me a differ-
ent life than what they say with their mouths.

I have not seen any Arminians arguing for sinless Perfectionism "as if" that is one of the 5 central points of the Arminian model.

Why not respond to the Arminian positions posted on this thread? You may not agree with them, but they represent a broad segment of Arminian believers.

The "sinless perfection" segment is not well represented in the Arminian groups. In 1Cor 10 and Romans 6 God tells us that we are not "required" to sin - but that does not mean that "sinless perfection" is the only alternative to "Being lost".

As pointed out in the list of problems solved by the Arminian model - it presents a kind loving, all-powerful God that chooses not to "force" the will of others and it solves some of the biggest problems we have regarding the sin question.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
To be born again is to be given a NEW heart with a NEW will.

According to free willism, if one's old heart and old will was good enough to save him, then why wouldn't it be good enough to keep him saved? Free willism falls by its own logic.</font>[/QUOTE]We do not make up the plan as we go. God said, if we do this; then he will do that. The answers to all your concerns are in the bible. It is not good enough because God said so. IT'S HIS PLAN. MORE PROJECTION THEOLOGY, IF THIS IS THEN THIS MUST BE.

The plan is in the bible, our job is not to alter it, our job is to accept it. That's all.

Election fails by the will of God...

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Abiyah:
Wesley --

I am still vascillating between Calvinism and
Arminianism, leaning heavily toward Ccalvinism.
So far, I cannot accept all of eiither and I need
some box in between.

This whole thing is very new to me, and I am
very ignorant of all the implications, but I do
believe our God will lead those who want the
truth into Ttruth, and that that Truth does not
necessarily fit so neatly in some box marked
"Arminianism" or "Ccalvinism."

Lean towards Christ. Neither camp has all the answers. I am neither calvinist nor Arminiam. Being that I have to stand before God for myself, I will accept no man's prepackaged beliefs.

You have the same truths before you that they had, why do you need to be either. Paul said that we rewr called Christians. That should be good enough for anyone...

 

[Yelsew]

Ray Berrian said,

Not every saved person always returns to fellowship with God. Sorry. That is why God uses His 'sin unto death,' as noted in I Corinthians 11:30-32. The ones who the Lord takes home to Heaven prematurely never confessed their wrong doing or they would not have been taken out of the fellowship of communing brethren.

Sorry, Ray, but that don't float! You have completely mis-interpreted those verses.

1 Corinthians 11:17-34 deals with the Lord's supper and not judgment of backsliders.

Consider 1 Cor 11:28,29 "Everyone is to examine himself and only then eat of the bread or drink from the cup; because a person who eats and drinks without recognising the body is eating and drinking his own condemnation.

It is not a matter of God taking us out, it is a matter of what Communion is all about.

 

[Abiyah]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Abiyah:
Nor do I believe that people are born sinning as Calvinism teaches.

Calvinism teaches that men are born sinners.

I also cannot believe that a person who is truly saved continues in deliberate sin as Calvinism teaches.

Calvinism doesn't teach this, unless I misunderstand you. People who continue in deliberate sin give evidence that they have not been saved. Perhpas you have this point confused with arminianism, many of whom do teach something like this since they deny the perseverance of the saints.</font>[/QUOTE]As I said, I am new to the doctrine of Calvinism.
I am trying to learn, and I do know that some
Calvinists teach this. However, I also know that
there are many varying beliefts that also come
under the name of "Calvinist."

I'm trying! 8o)

 

[Abiyah]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I am still vascillating between Calvinism and Arminianism, leaning heavily toward Ccalvinism.
So far, I cannot accept all of eiither and I need
some box in between.

Why in heavens name would you want to be identified as anything but Christian, unhyphenated Christian? That is, Calvinist-Christian, . . . These divisions also dictate to the adherents how they are to view and worship God. . . . You will be identified as either a Believer in Christ or an Unbeliever before the Judgment throne of God. . . .</font>[/QUOTE]Calvinism is just a term designating a system of
belief--short-hand for a long explanation. I put
no more stock in Calvinism than just that. I do not
see that as problematic. When I speak to others,
I call myself a believer or a Messianic believer; I
do not designate that I am either Calvinist or
Arminian, except in a conversation as this thread
invites.

Why not set the theologies of men who are like you and I aside and trust exclusively in Jesus? He has never steered anyone wrong. . . .

8o) My hope, my faith, my trust is in our Lord--
our Lord alone, not a doctrine. As I said,
"Calvinist" designating a particular belief I am
learning.

[ October 22, 2002, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

[Abiyah]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Abiyah
I do not believe that believers never sin, as those
who are holiness Aarminians teach. I have seen
the very ones who teach this show me a differ-
ent life than what they say with their mouths.

I have not seen any Arminians arguing for sinless Perfectionism "as if" that is one of the 5 central points of the Arminian model.</font>[/QUOTE]As I designated, I was speaking of holiness-
Arminians. I know that there are varying
branches of holiness-Arminians, too, but this
is what I was taught where I attended for 50
years.

Why not respond to the Arminian positions posted on this thread? You may not agree with them, but they represent a broad segment of Arminian believers.

I was responding to a particular note, as posters
often do. I have responded to the initially-stated
premises many times over the years, in various
formats, as well as on Baptist Board. What,
exactly, do you want me to respond to? I was
merely stating an observation.

The "sinless perfection" segment is not well
represented in the Arminian groups. In 1Cor
10 and Romans 6 God tells us that we are
not "required" to sin - but that does not
mean that "sinless perfection" is the only
alternative to "Being lost".

This is something I have only learned over the
last few years. Where I attended, they taught
totaly sinless living--no exceptions--and their
definition of sin was merely "He who knoweth
to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin"--
that and nothing more. Even then, they did
not take this as far as the writer intended.

As pointed out in the list of problems solved by the Arminian model - it presents a kind loving, all-powerful God that chooses not to "force" the will of others and it solves some of the biggest problems we have regarding the sin question.

IN Christ,

Bob

As far as I am concerned, both doctrines--
Arminianism and Calvinism attempt to recreate
our God in their own image. I believe that there
is a psychological reason behind each person's
choice of which "God" they choose--the Armin-
ian one or the Calvinist one.

I did not come here to make people angry or
to say that I dislike Arminians! (For one thing,
my husband is still Arminian!) I merely posted
an answer to another's post. But since we have
gone into my Arminian experience, which was
from a holiness church, I will say that the ones
who taught me sinlessness did not live it, but
most tried valiantly and some came awfully
close to achieving it. However, the loudest ones
among them were the ones who fell shortest.

[ October 22, 2002, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

[Yelsew]

I believe that there is a psychological reason behind each person's choice of which "God" they choose--the Arminian one or the Calvinist one.

I certainly hope that one who professes Jesus as Lord and Savior is not entertaining thoughts of multiple gods. There is no Calvinist-God, nor is there an Armenian God, or a Catholic God, or a Baptist God. Let's stick with the reality that there is but ONE GOD who is seen differently by different men. It's man's perspective of God that is suspect.

 

[Abiyah]

oh, come on, Yeslew

 

[BobRyan]

But since we have
gone into my Arminian experience, which was
from a holiness church, I will say that the ones
who taught me sinlessness did not live it

The five main points of Arminianism listed - did not require anyone to think they "Are lost if they are not sinless" - and that is why you rarely find that even among Arminians.

The points that listed the "problems solved" by the Arminian view - are significant. They include some of the biggest questions we have this side of heaven and they avoid many of the pitfalls of the Calvinist implications.

And further - the Arminian view does not require that we reject those portions of truth that you can find in the Calvinist doctrines.

It is something to consider.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

But since we have
gone into my Arminian experience, which was
from a holiness church, I will say that the ones
who taught me sinlessness did not live it

The five main points of Arminianism listed - did not require anyone to think they "Are lost if they are not sinless" - and that is why you rarely find that even among Arminians.

The points that listed the "problems solved" by the Arminian view - are significant. They include some of the biggest questions we have this side of heaven and they avoid many of the pitfalls of the Calvinist implications.

And further - the Arminian view does not require that we reject those portions of truth that you can find in the Calvinist doctrines.

It is something to consider.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Abiyah:
oh, come on, Yeslew

The point is, all human doctrines fail to convey correctly the things of God. But to speak of there being a Calvin-God or an Armenius-God is pure foolishness and such foolishness must end. There is too much work to do to be aligning oneself with the doctrines of man.